Will Entitlement kill competition BBQ?

Haha... It really does feel like every weekend someone is blaming the TOD for their results. It is a really easy to blame the TOD and go on like you had a perfect cook which most likely you didn't. I typically look at my scores on the way home and then they get tossed in the trash or filed away and don't look at them again. I take the results as that only.

But we have actual data not rumors that can be used to better the judging process and it is irresponsible to ignore that and keep burying our heads in the sand like it doesn't exist.
 
ique said:
Well I said "maybe". A true table of death is definitely possible. Reading facebook and talking to folks it seems like the reason for every team's poor performance that weekend is the old "TOD". Sometimes its just not the case and especially when evaluating a single entry.
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When you land on a table of a 40 team contest that didn't place anybody higher than 18th in a category, and you've noticed that there were some great teams on those tables too, and they also scored miserably, it's pretty much a TOD.

I know when my stuff is good and when it's off, and when I get screwed and when I get what I deserved. TOA and TOD skews the hell out of it.
 
ique said:
I'd challenge the general sentiment in this thread that bad (or more accurately uneven) judging is some kind of new trend. I've been cooking for 15 years and always, the cream rises to the top. I don't hear Tuffy or Darren complaining about the judging.

Here is what has changed. One, the new scoring sheets. Same judging that's been going on for years but now we get to see the gory details. Two, comp bbq classes. Over the past 3-5 years "the field" has improved the quality of BBQ entries dramatically. Instead of 10% of teams at a given contest cooking grand champion type entries now its 50%... or more. Not only that but from what I can tell the entries are remarkably similar. Same teachers, same sauces, same flavor profile, same appearances. Thus the feeling of the crapshoot.

Of course KCBS should lead the way in improving training and getting judges more level set on what a 9 is and what a 6 is. I've been in a judging tent twice so dont have much to offer here. But one thing is the judging classes should have some GC level entries, pictures, discussion of attributes of great bbq. The food I've seen at some judging classes is horrifying (sorry volunteers).

The other idea floated lately that we can somehow statistically "deek" the problem by putting X number of new judges on this table.. and put the guy that scored low the last two contest on that table is flawed and will produce just as many unexpected results. Guys, maybe the food on the so called table of death sucked!

Who has one of those shut up and cook t-shirts for me? :-D
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Great post. It's routine for KCBS contest reps to arrange judges based on experience level and to spread out the master judges. Usually that's done on the fly before the oath, but pre-assigned seating is also done by certain reps. As I understand it, they factor in the number of contests judged and also geography, so that regional preferences do not skew the results. Not sure how much that even matters anymore as the entries are becoming very similar and almost standardized.

Also, it is true that sometimes, all of a table's entries in a category really are below average, just as sometimes they are all excellent. Usually, it's a mix. It's random, and I judge 'em like I find 'em, fair and square, as I'm sure most of my fellow judges do.
 
Well, Chris is right, far too many people blame the judges when they have problems, and that's not good for BBQ. That said though, there are TODs. I have seen it. We all have. I would just like to see the KCBS board take the next logical step and analyze the data they already have from KCBScore to see if there IS trending data to be gleaned from it. I think there will be.
 
Podge said:
I cannot say with certainty that judging will be better in other areas. (Probably not) All I know is, is that I've seen too many judges show up for 2 contests in my area, and they were accommodated for. When there are 10 tables for a contest that needs 6 or 7, that can change the outcome. Also, I've seen some southern friends come up this way, and get jacked on some really bad tables in other contests.. I'm not going to hang around, cross my fingers and just hope things are better in 2015 in my area. I did 3 Kentucky contests in 2014. 2 of those, I hit both bad tables each of them had. You can expect one bad table at any contest, but a contest of about 40 teams having 2 really bad tables, as verified on score sheets, just want to move elsewhere and try something else.

I am headed to Tennessee next year for a couple of contests.. (probably only do 3-5 next year, if sam's works out for me in my area).. I will look at Tennessee's previous contests, what teams finished towards the top, as in, looking for consistency, and give them a shot.

Also, it's just a good idea to try out other contests.. This is a personal decision to change things up and my own opinion on how I see things with judging in my area. I'm sure plenty would disagree. That's ok. If I didn't hit both bad tables at each contest, I'm sure I'd feel a different way.
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OK I'm going to throw in my $.02.
1) Chris I don't know you but I know your one hellova cook and yes the cream rises to the top over the course of the year. That being said I've been at the same couple of comps that Chad is referring to..........a few of the cream teams got screwed.
2) My wife just got home and threw me off my whole train of thought:mad2:.
3) The comments in this thread about maybe all 6 entries on the TOD just weren't up to par.........I call BS. I've got a garage full of cow trophies. I've done enough comps to know if what I'm turning in is up to par. 2 months ago my wife (the official picker outer) said when turning in briskie that this is as good or better than we won Bentonville with we ended up 25th with the other entries on our table finishing 41st and worse out of 49.

That comp was the final straw and I too will be traveling to the areas that I feel has more consistent judging.

Dang I hate agreeing with Podge!
 
And yes I've said it here and all over Facebook. And I'll yell it from the highest mountain top! Give Richard Parker's program a chance to place judges n see how it works out just one time!!!!

Come one come all. Low scoring judges, High scoring judges....it evens it all out! :clap2:
 
I'd just like to throw this out...why not weed out judges who don't score consistently with other judges at the same table? I don't mean one meat or one contest.....if a judge is consistently X number of points below the rest of the judges, does re-seating them solve the problem?

Why not look at a judges historical scoring average against other judges at the same table (perhaps 3 contests would be a good start). When a single judge scoring is consistently lower or higher than the rest, retrain or weed them out. Judging should be a privilege not a right just because they pay $35 a year to continue to be "certified".

Seating based on scoring average does nothing to remove bad judges....it simply means the TOD and the TOA exchange a few judges to create an average table.
 
GrillBillie_D said:
I'd just like to throw this out...why not weed out judges who don't score consistently with other judges at the same table? I don't mean one meat or one contest.....if a judge is consistently X number of points below the rest of the judges, does re-seating them solve the problem?
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Should all judges score consistently? I mean it is a matter of opinion right? Subjective not science.

Maybe the judge gave 8 7 6 because they are new and used to Aaron Franklin and LA BBQ style brisket. All the other judges are more experienced and used to the saucy sweet briskets and score more like 8 8 9. Is the first judge wrong? By pushing all judges to score similar dont we continue the trend where all entries are then the same?

I know some competitors work very hard to develop a flavor profile that is consistently liked by a lot of different palettes. Other teams produce something that is a bit more fickle, the right mix of judges love it but other tables dislike and they see inconsistent results. Some teams are much better at surviving the low scoring table because of a consistently liked flavor profile and its a big advantage.

Sure there are definitely the 666 tables - where its just bad judges mailing it in. But how do you tell the difference between an honest opinion and bad judging?

I'm not all against the idea that Chris ZBQ, and Rich Parker have advocated... mixing up the judges based on scoring history. I just dont think there is enough information for that to really make a difference. Most judges judge 1-2 contests, there are a ton of brand new judges at every contest that have no history. Judges change their scoring pattern as the get more experience... some start judging higher, some lower... ie that score from 4 contests ago is not a good indicator of how a judge scores now. etc.
 
ique said:
Should all judges score consistently? I mean it is a matter of opinion right? Subjective not science.

Maybe the judge gave 8 7 6 because they are new and used to Aaron Franklin and LA BBQ style brisket. All the other judges are more experienced and used to the saucy sweet briskets and score more like 8 8 9. Is the first judge wrong? By pushing all judges to score similar dont we continue the trend where all entries are then the same?

I know some competitors work very hard to develop a flavor profile that is consistently liked by a lot of different palettes. Other teams produce something that is a bit more fickle, the right mix of judges love it but other tables dislike and they see inconsistent results. Some teams are much better at surviving the low scoring table because of a consistently liked flavor profile and its a big advantage.

Sure there are definitely the 666 tables - where its just bad judges mailing it in. But how do you tell the difference between an honest opinion and bad judging?

I'm not all against the idea that Chris ZBQ, and Rich Parker have advocated... mixing up the judges based on scoring history. I just dont think there is enough information for that to really make a difference. Most judges judge 1-2 contests, there are a ton of brand new judges at every contest that have no history. Judges change their scoring pattern as the get more experience... some start judging higher, some lower... ie that score from 4 contests ago is not a good indicator of how a judge scores now. etc.
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That's exactly my point lets not try and take away the subjectivity of judging as that will limit the creativity of teams. Nobody wants the judges to look at every entry and only score on a single flavor profile or arrangement of meat. That would be exceptionally boring.

I really don't think we are that far off in our thinking. If you use a rolling average it would it would not be that different looking at 3 - 4 comps vs 5 - 10 comps.

Personally, I have only judged once and found that I wanted to be on the other side. I do have a lot of friends that judge, and they will all tell you who the other judges are that are low. Some are new and others are quite seasoned. Lets let the computer do that work instead of reps and organizers wasting their time using techniques that aren't proven to work. e.g. spouses, friends, co-workers, car pool, BFF's, badminton partners
 
ique said:
Most judges judge 1-2 contests, there are a ton of brand new judges at every contest that have no history. Judges change their scoring pattern as the get more experience... some start judging higher, some lower... ie that score from 4 contests ago is not a good indicator of how a judge scores now. etc.
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I must strongly disagree with the first sentence above, at least in the 20+ contests that I judge every year there are VERY FEW if ANY brand new judges. Maybe the SouthEast is different in contest judging, but I've been to other areas of the country and find the same thing - few if any new judges.

I do strongly agree with the second sentence about judges changing their scoring pattern as they get more experience. Usually, as a Table Captain, I see "new" judges scoring lower than the table average, and increasing their scoring average with experience.

Something needs to be done, and I truly think that the new continuing education for judges will help this issue. Having ALL judges begin their scoring at the same point (not necessarily same "score") should bring the tables more in line, reducing the TOD and TOA that currently exist.
 
bbq.tom said:
I must strongly disagree with the first sentence above, at least in the 20+ contests that I judge every year there are VERY FEW if ANY brand new judges. Maybe the SouthEast is different in contest judging, but I've been to other areas of the country and find the same thing - few if any new judges.

I do strongly agree with the second sentence about judges changing their scoring pattern as they get more experience. Usually, as a Table Captain, I see "new" judges scoring lower than the table average, and increasing their scoring average with experience.

Something needs to be done, and I truly think that the new continuing education for judges will help this issue. Having ALL judges begin their scoring at the same point (not necessarily same "score") should bring the tables more in line, reducing the TOD and TOA that currently exist.
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I think there should be no judging classes for awhile. Maybe a year or two. KCBS can get things under control with the judging rules and practices they have now.. If there is an area/region that is in desperate need for CBJ's, then they can be the exception to judging classes.. The reason I say this, is maybe that there is more and more judges in certain areas that are causing an over-saturation of judges?... Just a thought?
 
I agree, Rich, there is more consensus in this discussion than not, just looking at things from different angles. It is difficult to encapsulate the complexity of this issue in a meaningful, yet appropriately concise, post within this forum. No one wants to read a scholarly article here--although sometimes I admittedly lack brevity. :caked:

Even though I know the question, "how do you tell the difference between an honest opinion and bad judging?" was rhetorical, Chris, I will attempt to answer it--by looking at the data.

I would hypothesize that "bad judging"--even though I wouldn't necessarily call it bad--occurs when a judge consistently and/or grossly scores each entry above or below the median score at the table. By looking at the data I can extrapolate the frequency of this occurrence, both at the contest and at every table, and I can also compare how that occurrence may have affected the overall score at the contest.

I will say that since KCBScore came out, I can't even count on one hand the number of times I have seen one judge being the dropped score for all 24 entries they scored or 23 or 22 entries they have scored (combined with a low average score). On the other side I have seen an average scores of 34 and 35 for all the entries. Sure you have variability of individual preferences, but to not like anything or think everything is excellent? [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCXgD-qVh6g"]"Neo, this is loco."[/ame] :becky:
 
INmitch said:
OK I'm going to throw in my $.02.
1) Chris I don't know you but I know your one hellova cook and yes the cream rises to the top over the course of the year. That being said I've been at the same couple of comps that Chad is referring to..........a few of the cream teams got screwed.
2) My wife just got home and threw me off my whole train of thought:mad2:.
3) The comments in this thread about maybe all 6 entries on the TOD just weren't up to par.........I call BS. I've got a garage full of cow trophies. I've done enough comps to know if what I'm turning in is up to par. 2 months ago my wife (the official picker outer) said when turning in briskie that this is as good or better than we won Bentonville with we ended up 25th with the other entries on our table finishing 41st and worse out of 49.

That comp was the final straw and I too will be traveling to the areas that I feel has more consistent judging.

Dang I hate agreeing with Podge!
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Just where are these areas you and Podge speak of? Could it be OZ? :)
 
I agree with the saturation of CBJ classes. KCBS doesn't even question them. My hometown ci test will do one every year. Another local contest has done 2 so far this year. There were one or two up in WI this uear. More in Iowa. These judges are going somewhere to judge. I judged at a Sam's contest in Tucson last year. All the tables had 3 new judges and one had 2 new judges. Not really sure if that is fair to the cooks? It's great they get all Master CBJ's for the finals. But if teams aren't advancing out of a local because of inexperienced judging, to me that is a problem. So if it happens at Sam's, I know from experience it happens at normal contests as well. I believe my hometown contest tries to limit it to 10% or maybe 10 new CBJ's, for a 70 team contest.
 
Scottie said:
I agree with the saturation of CBJ classes. KCBS doesn't even question them. My hometown ci test will do one every year. Another local contest has done 2 so far this year. There were one or two up in WI this uear. More in Iowa. These judges are going somewhere to judge. I judged at a Sam's contest in Tucson last year. All the tables had 3 new judges and one had 2 new judges. Not really sure if that is fair to the cooks? It's great they get all Master CBJ's for the finals. But if teams aren't advancing out of a local because of inexperienced judging, to me that is a problem. So if it happens at Sam's, I know from experience it happens at normal contests as well. I believe my hometown contest tries to limit it to 10% or maybe 10 new CBJ's, for a 70 team contest.
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I was told by one of the organizers here in Wi KCBS asked him to hold a CBJ class this winter. Even with the new contests popping up I would guess of the CBJs here 50-60 % don't get to judge often .And then you have Cooks calling the organizers badgering them because their friends aren't being selected to judge :drama:
 
CBJ Classes = Money for KCBS. plain and simple. There needs to be a census of there the saturation is.

Podge is right, there needs to be a moratorium on classes until the re-training can be figured out.

I would be curious to see just how profitable the CBJ recruitment has been.
 
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