Vegetable Oil~The Idiot's Oil

pjtexas1 said:

I was taking about how there seems to be legitimate sources that claim canola oil is healthy and other sources that claim it's terrible. Just like anything else...really confusing.

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The confusion is made worse by the fact that canola has been changed and improved by breeding programs over the last half century. When I was a young man, I worked in a food laboratory, and remember reading a paper about the risks of rapeseed oil, which then contained very high levels of erucic acid. This was said to cause liver tumours and other problems in laboratory rats.

I must admit that I've avoided rapeseed/canola oil until recently. But you can now get cold-pressed "low erucic acid" rapeseed oil. There's a bottle on my kitchen counter right now.

The problem is that at least here in UK, cold-pressed rapeseed oil is far more expensive than decent quality European cold-pressed olive oil, so we still tend to use olive oil for most purposes, and sunflower oil for frying.

buccaneer said:

If you buy fresh pressed EVOO then it is so high in antioxidents you can cook with it at a pretty high temp.

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That is interesting to hear, Buccs. I took a few minutes to google what the standards are in Canada for expeller pressed, cold pressed, etc., and was faced with more sifting and reading than I can do in a year. I don't know what Canada's standards are for olive oil and I don't know if we get it fresh enough to consider the option you posted above. Many years ago I equated cold pressed with Extra Virgin, can't remember now what I was reading or what information I was exposed to. Some of the trouble with learning about the food I consume is that over years I don't remember sources of information and other details of my decision. I find it impossible to keep track of that much information so I adopt attitudes. My #1 attitude for food and drink is go as natural as possible, #2 is go as close I can to what my ancestors did as I can and #3 is don't believe doctors/scientists/governments or anyone else that says highly refined and processed is okay and healthy.

pjtexas1 said:

Confusing...webmd recommends canola oil, heart.org claims it comes from the seed of the canola plant???

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pjtexas1 said:

I was taking about how there seems to be legitimate sources that claim canola oil is healthy and other sources that claim it's terrible. Just like anything else...really confusing.

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There is a lot of contradictory information out there, I think there always will be. Studies are not equal, scientists are not equal, doctors are not equal and this inequality is one reason conflicting information is released. When I hear of a recent study of "X" reversing a previous study of "X" I entrench more deeply in my belief that scientists, doctors and studies are not equal. I am also aware that large corporations and whole industries can afford to and do coerce health studies. The tobacco industry comes to mind as a good example of that.

The way I combat good and bad information is to create filters. There will be times when my filters fall on the wrong side of some information but I think the majority of information that makes it through my 3 attitudes (posted above) is correct. I also believe 80% is still an "A". Every single thing I consume does not have to pass as healthy but the majority of what I consume must. Most people that have faced a serious or life-threatening illness or disease look at what they consume differently than they did before getting sick. I am a cancer survivor and that has deeply coloured how I accept and treat health information.

Another thing we can do to examine and sift information is to hone our intuition. Everyone has a gut instinct, an internal knowing. When you are in the midst of peaceful time, when you are relaxed and comfortable -- maybe you are fishing, tending your smokers, holding a sleeping baby in a quiet room, meditating, praying -- listen to what your gut says about the food you consume. Like mtbchip said above, food is our #1 exposure. I include the air we breathe. I know from personal experience that sickness and suffering sucks, if I can have a better life by paying attention to my inner knowing, why wouldn't I?

Kathy's Smokin' said:

I use cold pressed Extra Virgin olive oil and cold pressed avocado oil for salads and some low temperature cooking. I remember the smoke point of EVOO as 345°F but recently I read it as 375°F. Cold pressed avocado oil is the same. For frying at higher temperatures I use grapeseed, sesame and at one time I did use rice bran. High temp frying with solids are butter, coconut oil and home-rendered lard from the whole legs and shoulders I smoke.

I'm glad the tide has turned back in a more friendly way to traditional solid fats, in particular nutritious solid fats like lard and coconut oil. Latest news I've heard is lard in moderation helps convert our low density lipids (bad cholesterol) to high density lipids (good cholesterol)….. though I wouldn't choose to buy lard full of preservatives (like that sold in grocery stores).

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Actually avocado oil has one of the highest smoke points for cooking oils and holds up better than most. Down side is it's very expensive.

pjtexas1 said:

I was taking about how there seems to be legitimate sources that claim canola oil is healthy and other sources that claim it's terrible. Just like anything else...really confusing.

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Not sure why there’s confusion, substitute any food product for oil in this thread & you’ll get the same ‘confusion’ spurred on by endless citations of sources that draw radically different conclusions all purportedly based on ‘science, clinical trials & research’ & blah blah blah.

Follow the money & it’ll lead you to the source of every opinion expressed by the various competing components of the food industry. You can read all this nonsense until your head spins, pick what you believe to be the most reputable source, click your heels together & only by luck you may be right. Or you may be wrong. One thing is for sure, you’ll never know.

The old common sense standard seems to make sense, don’t make a pig of yourself in the consumption of any one product; eat whatever you want in moderation…

Italian & Spanish olive oil fails to meet “Australian standards’ has to be the funniest thing I’ve read in quite a while.

Teleking said:

Actually avocado oil has one of the highest smoke points for cooking oils and holds up better than most. Down side is it's very expensive.

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I had heard avocado oil had a low point and my mother heard it was high. Then I ran across an article that said refined avocado oil had the high smoke point and cold pressed had the low point. Did your source of information say if it was refined or cold pressed avocado oil that had one of the highest smoke points?

It's going to be one of those things that starts out good for you then boom they will discover it's causing people not to digest something else.

Well, this is certainly an interesting thread. I was pretty happy not thinking about oil and using whatever is cheap, and I guess now I have to think about it. The articles online are difficult for me because most of them make bold statements with no evidence backing them up. The only thing that really worries me is that unhealthy solvents are used for the production of canola and some other oils, and I can't imagine that those are totally removed.

Zippylip said:

Not sure why there’s confusion, substitute any food product for oil in this thread & you’ll get the same ‘confusion’ spurred on by endless citations of sources that draw radically different conclusions all purportedly based on ‘science, clinical trials & research’ & blah blah blah.

Follow the money & it’ll lead you to the source of every opinion expressed by the various competing components of the food industry. You can read all this nonsense until your head spins, pick what you believe to be the most reputable source, click your heels together & only by luck you may be right. Or you may be wrong. One thing is for sure, you’ll never know.

The old common sense standard seems to make sense, don’t make a pig of yourself in the consumption of any one product; eat whatever you want in moderation…

Italian & Spanish olive oil fails to meet “Australian standards’ has to be the funniest thing I’ve read in quite a while.

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Science and research are one thing and up for debate. It doesnt have to be debated that refined oils are not natural and made from from a chemical process.

Kathy's Smokin' said:

I had heard avocado oil had a low point and my mother heard it was high. Then I ran across an article that said refined avocado oil had the high smoke point and cold pressed had the low point. Did your source of information say if it was refined or cold pressed avocado oil that had one of the highest smoke points?

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Every google-fu source lists avocado oil refined at 520 and unrefined at 480 which is still pretty high.

I've a lot of love for the oldschool cooking fats - lard, beef dripping, butter and schmaltz. Out of all the cooking oils and fats those rank highest in terms of flavour for me and they're not nearly as bad as they're made out to be. In fact all have some benefits. You cannot beat chips (french fries) fried in beef dripping. Fact. And fried rice with a little fat from making pork scratchings? Phwoar

Smoke point is one thing.....stability & breaking down into "unheatlhy" types of fats is something else......

Macadamia oil is probably the best for staying stable under heat conditions, but only has a medium high smoke point.............

from Zippylip:
"Follow the money & it’ll lead you to the source of every opinion expressed by the various competing components of the food industry. You can read all this nonsense until your head spins, pick what you believe to be the most reputable source, click your heels together & only by luck you may be right. Or you may be wrong. One thing is for sure, you’ll never know. "


what i look for is the core info that's common to all the "studies" or viewpoints, then look at a decision from there......

This is common to all of them in one way or another..........

"Saturated fats and monounsaturated fats are pretty resistant to heating, but oils that are high in polyunsaturated fats should be avoided for cooking (1)."

Teleking said:

Every google-fu source lists avocado oil refined at 520 and unrefined at 480 which is still pretty high.

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I'm getting the same as you googling around right now. I looked through my 'health' bookmarks and couldn't find either of the two sources that said it was low. Some of the googling today that said it had a high smoke point look to me like good quality sources of info so I'm moving into your camp about this. Thanks, brother! :becky: :clap2:


On edit: I kept looking and found a couple of sources again with the lower smoke point for cold pressed. :wacko: This is a good example of the conflicting information out there and how it plays havoc in our search to live healthier. I think the best way to resolve this question is trace it back to the studies quoted. Not something I have the time to do soon, but eventually, I hope to figure this out. One article said the bottle of oil should have it's smoke point printed on it. I checked my avocado oil bottle and it doesn't, in fact, I don't ever remember seeing an actual smoke point printed on any bottle of oil. Maybe I'll do my own test with my digital Weber thermometer and some cold pressed avocado oil, then heat until it smokes. Geez, that may just be the easiest approach.

Zippylip said:

...Italian & Spanish olive oil fails to meet “Australian standards’ has to be the funniest thing I’ve read in quite a while.

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I am not quite sure how this is funny. In truth, Canadian, American and Australian standards are all higher than Italy and Spain, where the standard of manufacture are voluntary, and there are no labeling standards other than DOC designation. In fact, in numerous tests, only 10% of oils from all EU countries have met the standard for Extra Virgin classification, with nearly 40% of exports having been proven to be fraudulent, and the balance being inconclusive. Even by their own regulatory estimates, Spain and Italy not that only about 10% of their olive oil production can be classified as Extra Virgin, even as they not that 50% of total oil production is sold as EV.

My regular, everyday olive oil, which is extra virgin (at least as tested by current standards) is from California Olive Oils in California. And I can fry in it, up to temperatures around 375°F. I prefer Spanish free run of late for salads and such, although, I have fried potatoes in it, and it was terrific. No smoking.

Lard, pure and natural.

Zippylip said:

Italian & Spanish olive oil fails to meet “Australian standards’ has to be the funniest thing I’ve read in quite a while.

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landarc said:

I am not quite sure how this is funny. In truth, Canadian, American and Australian standards are all higher than Italy and Spain, where the standard of manufacture are voluntary, and there are no labeling standards other than DOC designation. In fact, in numerous tests, only 10% of oils from all EU countries have met the standard for Extra Virgin classification, with nearly 40% of exports having been proven to be fraudulent, and the balance being inconclusive. Even by their own regulatory estimates, Spain and Italy not that only about 10% of their olive oil production can be classified as Extra Virgin, even as they not that 50% of total oil production is sold as EV.

My regular, everyday olive oil, which is extra virgin (at least as tested by current standards) is from California Olive Oils in California. And I can fry in it, up to temperatures around 375°F. I prefer Spanish free run of late for salads and such, although, I have fried potatoes in it, and it was terrific. No smoking.

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Thanks for posting, Landarc. I was looking at avocado oil and forgot to post about this. I found an interesting link in "Olive Oil Times" http://www.oliveoiltimes.com/tag/olive-oil-adulteration that has a lot of information about olive oil fraud and what those in the industry are doing about it. One of the headlines has Australia pushing for higher standards, another headline has 5 million Euros being spent in the European Union to address better detection tools for olive oil fraud. I remembered reading that fraud was a problem with Italian olive oil but holy cow, had no idea it was this bad and in so many countries. :wacko: Next time I'm out, I'm buying Australian.

Ha, hows your foot taste Zippylip?

Actually, unless you have issues with eating meat, there are very sound arguments for frying in lard and suet. They are, at a molecular level, far healthier than any vegetable or seed based oil for frying. This has to do with the nature of how oils react to higher heats, and the reaction actually takes place far below the 'smoke point' of oils. It also happens that their specific densities create a different environment that leads to more effective heat transfer when frying at any given temperature.

Essentially, if you insist on eating deep fried foods, you are probably better off eating something fried in a denser oil, be it lard, suet or rice bran oil, over the more common vegetable and/or nut and seed oils.

smoke ninja said:

Ha, hows your foot taste Zippylip?

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Lemme see if I follow your logic Mr. Ninja, someone posts a statement that the standard in countries X Y & Z are in fact higher than certain European countries then someone else posts a random link to another ridiculous internet website purportedly supporting whatever point they’re trying to ‘prove’ & you, like a standard operating sheep, fall right in line with your brilliant quip. I’m always amazed at how easily people are manipulated, & this is no exception.

Oh, and to answer your question, why don't you ask your ass :mrgreen:

Tell you what ill keep drinking the kool-aide and you can keep drinking the vegetable oil. Better yet lets squash this. Come on over my girlfriend will make some potatoe salad and ill smoke us up my famous candied ribs.



I wouldnt call these ridiculous internet websites though

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFLc731iwrh6MQj7C58Dj7iHkAFtA
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFjAC&usg=AFQjCNH08x2p4seQGY151QYH7g6J1YLd6g
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kQFjAE&usg=AFQjCNFzyGTJDLdTC1wbOHtb_hG9v6D92w
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...jABOAo&usg=AFQjCNGxMYyDQ2x0j4a_XIYt1cr_Z22GFg