So when is the sauce contest going to end?

[Right on Q]

No, just weary of all of the chest thumpers who make denigrating remarks, instead off discussing the issue.

In this whole thread, I have not seen one comment explaining to me how a cook thinks an entry with heavy sauce is BALANCED. No discussion, just chest thumping by the usual suspects.

If taste is balanced according to the 5 flavors mentioned in the rules, then where does the taste of the meat come in? (this is a serious question)

At the end of the day good bbq is good bbq and it will often be scored that way. I don't particularly like heavy amounts of sauce. However, if I taste a heavily sauced entry that's excellent in flavor and tenderness they will get 9s.

 

[EngineeredBBQ]

No, just weary of all of the chest thumpers who make denigrating remarks, instead off discussing the issue.

In this whole thread, I have not seen one comment explaining to me how a cook thinks an entry with heavy sauce is BALANCED. No discussion, just chest thumping by the usual suspects.

I am going to keep saucing how I am saucing now. Seems to be working, keeps bringing home the checks.......

 

[midwest_kc]

If taste is balanced according to the 5 flavors mentioned in the rules, then where does the taste of the meat come in? (this is a serious question)

At the end of the day good bbq is good bbq and it will often be scored that way. I don't particularly like heavy amounts of sauce. However, if I taste a heavily sauced entry that's excellent in flavor and tenderness they will get 9s.

Was just going to post the same thing. The balance referred to in the guidelines say balance of the 5 flavors. Meat isn't one of those.

 

[mattmountz94]

Another 10mins well read. This reminds me of a new school vs old school type battle.

 

[Okie Sawbones]

Was just going to post the same thing. The balance referred to in the guidelines say balance of the 5 flavors. Meat isn't one of those.

This is a meat contest, not a sauce contest, just like it is not a salad contest for those who try to nitpick greenery. The comment cards would not have 'too sweet' and 'too much sauce' if they were not factors to be considered.

 

[D&D BBQ]

I don't see what all of the hullabaloo is about. You got 1 judge who isn't a sauce fan and will ding an entry because taste is entirely subjective . My teenage stepson is a sauce hater too so I'll leave a rack or some chicken parts unsauced for him because he's a dry rub fan. If more judges end up with the same line of thinking, scores and comments will reflect this and so a light sauce/dry rub trend will be started. Until that happens, nothing will change and a few judges will grouse about too much sauce. Don't like it? Blame your fellow judges who continue to give out 9s for it and your score will be the one that gets thrown out.

 

[bradgreer]

I have heard the quote "It's a meat contest, not a sauce contest" quite a few times in the past and my question is, is it a meat contest or a BBQ contest? Doesn't BBQ have sauce most of the time? We can say it's a meat contest all we want, but if a competitor turns in an entry with no sauce, they are bound to come in DAL. I do think the entry needs to be balanced, but it all boils down to the fact that the competitor is going to do what they think can win. The End...

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

No, just weary of all of the chest thumpers who make denigrating remarks, instead off discussing the issue.

In this whole thread, I have not seen one comment explaining to me how a cook thinks an entry with heavy sauce is BALANCED. No discussion, just chest thumping by the usual suspects.

Could be that some chicken cooks don't want to tell the whole world how they go about making their entry a high scoring entry?

The first thing they teach in class is that top pitmasters will try to get a "lot" of flavor into "one bite" competition cooking.

With that said, if the cook puts extra sauce on the piece of chicken, maybe he/she is also putting extra flavors into the piece of chicken?...but you being a fine cooking judge is well aware of that I suppose?:doh:

Hope that's not too much chest thumping for you.....

 

[dadsr4]

I don't see what all of the hullabaloo is about. You got 1 judge who isn't a sauce fan and will ding an entry because taste is entirely subjective . My teenage stepson is a sauce hater too so I'll leave a rack or some chicken parts unsauced for him because he's a dry rub fan. If more judges end up with the same line of thinking, scores and comments will reflect this and so a light sauce/dry rub trend will be started. Until that happens, nothing will change and a few judges will grouse about too much sauce. Don't like it? Blame your fellow judges who continue to give out 9s for it and your score will be the one that gets thrown out.

"You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, ... They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day ... And friends they may thinks it's a movement." Alice's Restaurant Arlo Guthrie

 

[Okie Sawbones]

Good BBQ houses serve their sauce on the side. They are proud of their meat. Mediocre places drown their Q in sauce to cover (or try to cover) up their mistakes.

Again, people put words in other people's mouths, then run with it. A competition rib or chicken thigh will have a nice rub, +/- a sauce that has set into a nice glaze.

Again, I am not the lone voice in the dark. I brought up this post because I have heard numerous judging complaining about the 'sauce contest' during the last few events. As far as fellow judges giving 9s, don't get me started on score inflation, because it is real.

I thought we could have a reasonable discussion here on this forum. I should have known better. I'm done. Say goodnight John Boy.

 

[dadsr4]

Good BBQ houses serve their sauce on the side. They are proud of their meat. Mediocre places drown their Q in sauce to cover (or try to cover) up their mistakes.

Again, people put words in other people's mouths, then run with it. A competition rib or chicken thigh will have a nice rub, +/- a sauce that has set into a nice glaze.

Again, I am not the lone voice in the dark. I brought up this post because I have heard numerous judging complaining about the 'sauce contest' during the last few events. As far as fellow judges giving 9s, don't get me started on score inflation, because it is real.

I thought we could have a reasonable discussion here on this forum. I should have known better. I'm done. Say goodnight John Boy.

John the Baptist seems to have established a place in history, just saying.
In my humble opinion, keep up the good fight, if for no other reason, to prevent me from having to face "Jonnie Trigg ribs" again.

 

[D&D BBQ]

John the Baptist seems to have established a place in history, just saying.
In my humble opinion, keep up the good fight, if for no other reason, to prevent me from having to face "Jonnie Trigg ribs" again.

You know what? I agree with you and I bet plenty of other competitors do too because the foil wrapping with the sugary fake butter mix is a major PITA. The problem is most people, including judges, like it better. Whenever I've cooked ribs and presented to people as A (unwrapped) vs B (wrapped with apple juice) vs C (Jonny Trigg mix), cooked to the same doneness via the toothpick test, and I ask which is better judging by a bite or 2, JT wins hands down. Why? Because people like candied ribs and that wins contests. The only way that's going to change is if candied, thick sauced ribs start getting 6-7s and comment cards stating why. Cooks aren't going to make wholesale changes to what wins for them until judges, en masse, tell them to via low scores.

You guys need to start a movement with fellow judges because I'd love to never have to buy another blue squeeze bottle of fake butter again!

 

[Blanton]

You guys need to start a movement with fellow judges because I'd love to never have to buy another blue squeeze bottle of fake butter again!

So you are asking judges to score based on what their preconceived likes are and not open minded to what come across and taste good. You yourself said side by side JT ribs win over the others.

If you don't like comp bbq game don't play the game.

 

[dadsr4]

So you are asking judges to score based on what their preconceived likes are and not open minded to what come across and taste good. You yourself said side by side JT ribs win over the others.

If you don't like comp bbq game don't play the game.

There is no preconception involved. I've visited several comps without being an completer. I've watched all the crap competitors have to go through to please the judge's.
I'm on the judge's side, I like to enjoy what I eat.

 

[jakel]

Wow just popped in to see about sauce but I'm going back to N&P some of you folks get down right hardcore stubborn mean...

 

[D&D BBQ]

So you are asking judges to score based on what their preconceived likes are and not open minded to what come across and taste good. You yourself said side by side JT ribs win over the others.

If you don't like comp bbq game don't play the game.

No, I'm saying if judges' scores like Okie's reflected that they like non-JT ribs better, than that's what they'd get. When Blues Hog stops winning, they'll get something else, and until then the cooks are going to give the judges what they think they want. It's a democracy, and judges vote with their scores. Majority wins, and candied ribs and such are favored by the majority. I'd rather turn in something simpler where you can "taste the meat" but until scoring starts reflecting that BBQ candy is out and word spreads, then expect some candied ribs and such.

 

[ModelMaker]

Just saw a box on a turn in critique page on Facebook for chicken that scored a 175 and had tons of sauce. Looked like from the MO area of the US. It all depends on what judges you get I guess.

When I get a entry for chicken that is obviously a very thick coating of sauce my first thought is how well did the cook present his idea of excellence in how he sauced his chicken, then placement and overall how bad I want to get at it.
Next is taste and tenderness, if all I get out of my two bites is the flavor of his sauce then I score accordingly.
It's not rocket science kids, follow KCBS rules and procedures and everybody gets scored out of the same book.
Ed

 

[enasnidx]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm not butt hurt by the topic/question. It's a fair question to ask and I think Okie got fair responses (by most). I won't reiterate the reasons why cooks are using heavy, sweet sauces - that's been said. But I will say in my opinion, those two things are not ALWAYS hand in hand. I make sweet/candied ribs because I score better with them. I'd go so far to say that you probably won't eat my comp ribs and think, "boy, great pork flavor." Hopefully you'd say "wow, that flavor pops, tenderness was awesome, juicy. Excellent!" However, I don't think I over sauce my ribs either. Sauce won't be running down your chin or fingers. There's no standard for sauce quantity, only a judge's personal preference on "too much". Okie is just one judge with one opinion, take it or leave it (yeah, maybe he knows others too). So my ribs are very sweet without being overly gooey. Is this balanced? I think it's balanced enough. But hey, I'm just one cook with one opinion. Take it or leave it.

 

[Fat Freddy]

Okie I think I get what you were trying to say but the way you came across just hit me a bit off, and I love your jokes in the joke section so it is not personal.

I will use a contest I judged at as an example. I judged a contest where at least 2 entries were not sauced. once chicken once ribs. A judge at the table said he scored down because there was NOT any sauce and he feels sauce is an important part of competition BBQ, so to me there is a perfect argument to what you posted. Some judges will mark down for no sauce, while he never said what he thinks of thick sauce at least I know his opinion on sauce period.

On the other hand last year I was on a semi hot roll in chicken. Several good calls in a row, then at one contest near the bottom but I received a comment card about my sauce to thick. All the scores were down to what I was getting but that one comment card told me a lot. I went and checked my sauce and the picture I took and I agreed. Next week I made sure my sauce was thinner, top 5 call.........that one comment card told me a lot and helped tons.

So yes there can be to much to thick a sauce, comment card helps, but there can also be to little sauce according to judges as well. And as for my ribs I personally dont like them, nor does my blood sugar monitor but we did damn good in ribs last year and we vend much like we competed, comp style ribs just not as expensive ingredients, and my customers want the sauced candied style ribs as opposed to dry ribs they sauce themselves. So even though they are not CBJ's the candied ribs are popular with pubic and judges alike

 

[Okie Sawbones]

Okie I think I get what you were trying to say but the way you came across just hit me a bit off, and I love your jokes in the joke section so it is not personal.

I will use a contest I judged at as an example. I judged a contest where at least 2 entries were not sauced. once chicken once ribs. A judge at the table said he scored down because there was NOT any sauce and he feels sauce is an important part of competition BBQ, so to me there is a perfect argument to what you posted. Some judges will mark down for no sauce, while he never said what he thinks of thick sauce at least I know his opinion on sauce period.

On the other hand last year I was on a semi hot roll in chicken. Several good calls in a row, then at one contest near the bottom but I received a comment card about my sauce to thick. All the scores were down to what I was getting but that one comment card told me a lot. I went and checked my sauce and the picture I took and I agreed. Next week I made sure my sauce was thinner, top 5 call.........that one comment card told me a lot and helped tons.

So yes there can be to much to thick a sauce, comment card helps, but there can also be to little sauce according to judges as well. And as for my ribs I personally dont like them, nor does my blood sugar monitor but we did damn good in ribs last year and we vend much like we competed, comp style ribs just not as expensive ingredients, and my customers want the sauced candied style ribs as opposed to dry ribs they sauce themselves. So even though they are not CBJ's the candied ribs are popular with pubic and judges alike

I have to do one last comment, due to your very reasonable post, which I truly appreciate. You explained better what I failed to communicate, but then the Internet is obviously not the best way to communicate.

Thick is what I call goo, that lifts a pound of parsley with the sample. This is my 'over sauced'. I'll change my terminology in the future.

I can judge meat with no sauce fairly, but I do like a thin sauce myself, which I call a glaze when set properly.

As far as the public, they rave about fall off of the bone ribs, which my own family likes as well. :shocked: And just like the public, they also prefer JT sweet vs. savory ribs. I cook a half rack just for me and glaze with Swamp Boys Original, which is thin and sets well. I also use a finishing dust on my ribs.

Finally, I had no idea that cooks actually paid any attention to judges comment cards, based on some threads I've read on here, and on some of the attitudes my wife and I have received when we wandered through the cook area to say hello and look at the various pits. You have inspired me to turn in more comment cards, even if only one judge takes it to heart.

Again, thanks for the nice post. :thumb: