Quick knife question

[THoey1963]

Hey, as long as I can slice a ripe tomato, I don't care. My Wusthof's work great for the money I spent. And they weren't expensive enough where I wouldn't want to use my WorkSharp to sharpen them.

We're not talking something I want to put in a display case, we are talking about a daily use tool.

 

[buccaneer]

Hey, as long as I can slice a ripe tomato, I don't care. My Wusthof's work great for the money I spent. And they weren't expensive enough where I wouldn't want to use my WorkSharp to sharpen them.

We're not talking something I want to put in a display case, we are talking about a daily use tool.

Okay, I was really mad at the angling at 'elitism' and the ignorance of the tomato comment.
I wrote out a long damning response, but considering the Mods and current circumstances, I ask Theoy to research that which has been posted rather than this post that reads like a defensive attack from a insecure owner.
My intention was to help educate the OP, and my brothers in Q

 

[buccaneer]

I love hearing Bucc talk about knives. I love my knives, but his passion is greater than mine!

Could read your opinions on the subject all day. Thank you sir!

It's fella's with broad shoulders that take conflicting information on,bro!
Well done, and thank you!:clap2:

 

[smoke ninja]

I just recently purchased my first kitchen knives not from a home goods store. I would have to saw off rib tips. Landarc once ridiculed me for my rib slicing and out of embarrassment bought a few victornox knives. I consider the cost to be low, 20-40 bucks a piece. Humiliation can be a powerful tool. Compared to those faberware blades they are like katanas

 

[woodsider]

^^^:doh:

This statement shows that you are theorizing, and that you have never used one in your life.

It's like a guy who rode a mule getting a Ford Pinto and saying those Audi's are almost the same and just not worth the extra bucks.

Sorry, but it's true.
Nobody I know would drive the Audi and still hold the opinion that the Ford Pinto is similar in any way .

:becky:

Thanks buccaneer, I use my Shun's all the time and love them. It's true that a high end knife like a Shun Kaji are more enjoyable to use (and look at) than the best quality Henkel or Wusthof, but for most budgets the 5 times price difference for something like a Damascus blade Kaji may not be the best use of spare cash. For example, with the difference you can go a good way toward buying a new high end smoker and still have perfectly good, attractive and sharp knives. Shun Classic's are between the two quality and price levels and are a better step up for most - only about 1.5X price so better bang for the buck.

As far as the better steel in a super high end knife holding a better edge and lasting longer, this is quite true but for most people the difference in sharpness is splitting hairs (literally . IMO as long as you do a few passes with a steel every couple times a knife is used and is willing to stone the knife a bit when it starts to dull, a little longer hold on sharpness is no big deal. Conversely, if you don't steel and sharpen as you should it doesn't matter what knife you pay for - eventually you will be using dull knives.

IMHO knives are like most equipment, you pay a small fortune for that last increment in performance and looks that are a matter of "want" not "need". This comes from one who decided it is worth it to go high end.

 

[THoey1963]

Okay, I was really mad at the angling at 'elitism' and the ignorance of the tomato comment.
I wrote out a long damning response, but considering the Mods and current circumstances, I ask Theoy to research that which has been posted rather than this post that reads like a defensive attack from a insecure owner.
My intention was to help educate the OP, and my brothers in Q

Sorry for any misunderstanding with my post. It was not meant as a defensive attack and I am not really sure how it was taken that way. I have taken this offline with Buccaneer so that we don't derail the thread.

 

[Ag76]

Sorry for any misunderstanding with my post. It was not meant as a defensive attack and I am not really sure how it was taken that way. I have taken this offline with Buccaneer so that we don't derail the thread.

I cannot see why anyone took offense to your post either. I have a set of Wusthof Classics and like them a lot. I realize that they are not the best, most expensive knives out there, but I like them.

 

[jham0077]

I think ours is Henkle's. The in-laws got them for us one Christmas. I like them and they seem to stay sharp with a few swipes on the steel that came with them. I have stone sharpened them once in the 6-7 years we've had them. The steak knives are important but not top priority. After all, whats worse on an edge than hacking on a plate. And they get laid in the sink for dishes to beat up the edge on. The rest seem to be holding good, as long as I can keep the wife on cutting boards.

But you gotta start somewhere and that seems like a good place to me. If later down the road in your cooking endeavors you figure out you need a big fancy pig sticker, then pick one up. For a wedding gift freebie, that set will let you know what you need/want or don't need/want.

 

[aikiyoda]

Okay, I am uncomfortable leaving this unaddressed while brethren read it and believe it.
Aikiyoda, you will get a large number of people supporting this view, it is a commonly believed myth, so lets look at it.


People hear a lot about how "hard" the knife steel is as a selling point. Rockwell hardness indicates toughness, and is not a good indicator of the important qualities of steel used in a knife
Crucial qualities are strength, toughness, creating an edge and holding that edge. These last two are the major factors.
All of the Japanese brands I named are superior to the German makers, including Wustoff, henckels/Zwillings and every other German knife maker.

If you compare to Shun and Global, Shun wins slightly on that, but Global wins on balance and beats Shun by a mile in usage, both lose to the Fujiwara and Masamoto.
All of them beat the European steels used in knives.
Shun loses because of the loss of function due to aesthetic design factors, the top line to point makes it far more difficult (comparitively)when slicing vegetables or even a bigger drawback when dicing whole onions down.

If going for Shun(which I just wouldn't), I would avoid the Classic line altogether.
They baffled me by using VG-10 steel in their 3 layer damascus blade but they used this exemplary steel in a cosmetic way only, yet it is the far superior knife steel out of the 3 used!!
Cannot fathom that, except it is proof they place form way over function.:doh:

You can order Japanese knives from Japan with a 7 day delivery and total safety, once you know what you want.

Buy a good combination stone, like others have suggested too!

HTH

I can't argue that superior steels make for superior knives but my point was that if you have a great quality steel with a poor heat treatment or a lower rockeell then you'll have a poor knife. Whereas an average steel with a good heat treatment will give you a very good knife. Unfortunately western production knives generally use ok steel but they deliberately keep them softer to make them easier to care for.

The composition of the steel determines what the maximum edge retension, corrosion resistance, sharpness etc, but you only get that maximum performance in those areas if the steel receives a proper heat treatment and is tempered to the correct hardness. Every steel comes with recommended heat treatment and recommended rockwell hardness. You can also over harden a blade, if the max hardness is 58 rockwells and you harden it to 60 then you'll have a very brittle knife, even if that steel should normally be flexible

Take a normal carbon steel like 5160. You can make a knife thats razor sharp by heat treating it to 58 rockwells or you can make an axe out of it and heat treat it to 54 rockwells. Same steel completely different performance

There are phenomenal steels all over the world but unfortunately western production knives are made to be easy to look after so that normal people keep buying them, that means softer knives and sometimes worse steel. This is in contrast to custom knife makers and as you point out the japanese, who go for maximum performance but are therefore harder to care for.

Sorry to bore the brethren with the long winded reply but im a knife maker in my spare time and can yack on about knives all day!

 

[smokin30-06]

Alright, it looks like the coast is clear for me to post in here again. eep:

Since I already have this 2 piece set, and Wusthof has been nice enough to replace the santako after it's handle broke due to dishwashing, I guess I will stick with them. I have a relative that works at Williams-Sonoma. So, if we can figure out something to do with the credit from BBBeyond, I could get the Classic 7 piece set with block from W-S and add a 6 piece Classic steak knife kit.

Based on all the comments about sharpening stones, it sounds like I should throw

away and get a sharpening stone. Are they that bad? I am afraid to ask about sharpening stone advice, it might make the bombing in Gaza get worse. :boxing:

 

[woodsider]

Stones are way better than that thing. The kind of sharpener you have there doesn't create a clean edge and is bad for blade health. If you want to take the easy way out, you can get one of the high end electric sharpeners but they won't produce the same result as the stones (once you learn to use them) and even the high end sharpeners will leave little buffs/scratches on the sides of the blades. For most casual kitchen users this isn't the end of the world with pretty-good knives and they opt for convenience, but you would not want to make this tradeoff with higher end knives.

Also - if you learn to use stones for a few years with your first pretty-good knife set then when you go wonkers and buy high end you will know how to take care of your edge. It takes practice and you won't get the angle perfect at first - which is fine. Asian blades take a steeper angle and are a bit trickier to learn on than the German blades - but it doesn't take long for either as long as you are paying attention to the results you get.

There are a ton of how to videos on youtube - search for "sharpening a knife with a stone". Once you watch 3 or 4 you're ready to try. I used to use Shun stones but now I use the Kramer set because the bamboo sink fixture makes it easy to keep the stone wet without creating a mess and it is a very solid platform to hold the stones. Stones are good quality too. The Kramer system comes with a CD video that is very detailed. Drawback - Kramer system is pretty pricey.

 

[retired trucker]

Based on all the comments about sharpening stones, it sounds like I should throw

away and get a sharpening stone. Are they that bad? I am afraid to ask about sharpening stone advice, it might make the bombing in Gaza get worse. :boxing:

Run, don't walk to the nearest trash receptacle and donate that thing to the "Knife Destroying Gods"! It will ruin a good knife quicker than trying to sharpen it with your garbage disposer. I had a picture of a knife blade that had been sharpened with one of those, that was taken with a 100X microscope, and it looked like a picture of the Swiss Alps in miniature. There are lots of good stones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that with some practice with some old throw away knives, you can master with a little patience and practice. You can also use some good Wet or Dry sand paper in the 200 to 400 grit range on a solid backing that will work. It is fairly easy, but it does take some practice to get consistent results.

If all else fails, you can send them to me post paid, and I will sharpen them and return to you for free. Good luck!

Blessings, ray:

Omar

 

[smokin30-06]

I can definitely see the grooves from that type of sharpener with my super Lasik vision. I just need some time to get over the massive convenience of it and I will make the switch. Plus, I need to get my fiance to buy in on this too right? Earn some brownie points for helping in her kitchen!

 

[Ag76]

I can definitely see the grooves from that type of sharpener with my super Lasik vision. I just need some time to get over the massive convenience of it and I will make the switch. Plus, I need to get my fiance to buy in on this too right? Earn some brownie points for helping in her kitchen!

Unfortunately, you will learn that brownie points are not that easy to come by.

 

[Smoke®]

Sharpmaker by Spyderco is a very good easy to learn sharpening system. If you hawk ebay you can find them for a good price. The pic I posted of a knife filleting paper on the first page of this thread was sharpened using those stones. The steel in that knife is ZDP-189.

 

[buccaneer]

I cannot see why anyone took offense to your post either. I have a set of Wusthof Classics and like them a lot. I realize that they are not the best, most expensive knives out there, but I like them.

That isn't the point but since it was taken to PM's, I'll thrash it out there rather than here.
AT some point I will explain if people don't get it and want to.

We are dealing with it mano e mano.
I plan to tell him "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
and stab him with my yanagiba, right in the pancreas!:heh:
Shhhh, he will never see it coming...

 

[smokin30-06]

Unfortunately, you will learn that brownie points are not that easy to come by.

That's it, I am reporting you to the mods. I don't like what you said and that's the only thing I can think of to change that fact

 

[buccaneer]

Stones are way better than that thing. The kind of sharpener you have there doesn't create a clean edge and is bad for blade health. If you want to take the easy way out, you can get one of the high end electric sharpeners but they won't produce the same result as the stones (once you learn to use them) and even the high end sharpeners will leave little buffs/scratches on the sides of the blades. For most casual kitchen users this isn't the end of the world with pretty-good knives and they opt for convenience, but you would not want to make this tradeoff with higher end knives.

Also - if you learn to use stones for a few years with your first pretty-good knife set then when you go wonkers and buy high end you will know how to take care of your edge. It takes practice and you won't get the angle perfect at first - which is fine. Asian blades take a steeper angle and are a bit trickier to learn on than the German blades - but it doesn't take long for either as long as you are paying attention to the results you get.
No brother, it is the opposite.
Asian knives take a shallower angle than German knives, which take a shallower angle than butcher knives.
There are a ton of how to videos on youtube - search for "sharpening a knife with a stone". Once you watch 3 or 4 you're ready to try. I used to use Shun stones but now I use the Kramer set because the bamboo sink fixture makes it easy to keep the stone wet without creating a mess and it is a very solid platform to hold the stones. Stones are good quality too. The Kramer system comes with a CD video that is very detailed. Drawback - Kramer system is pretty pricey.

Don't use system sharpeners on fine Japanese knives.
Absolutely don't use electric on ANY blade, and if I could have learned to sharpen knives using stones by the time I turned 6, then any of you can learn it easily.
Youtube is good advice, and if you are careful there is no mistake you cannot fix, so proceed with confidence.
I'm not precious about sharpening, I'll use a riverstone (and have for months out of necessity in the outback once) bottles, leather belts, steel rods.
Once you practice the technique a little, it is a skill for life.

 

[buccaneer]

Alright, it looks like the coast is clear for me to post in here again. eep:

Since I already have this 2 piece set, and Wusthof has been nice enough to replace the santako after it's handle broke due to dishwashing, I guess I will stick with them. I have a relative that works at Williams-Sonoma. So, if we can figure out something to do with the credit from BBBeyond, I could get the Classic 7 piece set with block from W-S and add a 6 piece Classic steak knife kit.

Based on all the comments about sharpening stones, it sounds like I should throw

away and get a sharpening stone. Are they that bad? I am afraid to ask about sharpening stone advice, it might make the bombing in Gaza get worse. :boxing:

Yep, get rid of it!

 

[woodsider]

"Asian blades take a steeper angle and are a bit trickier to learn on than the German blades - but it doesn't take long for either as long as you are paying attention to the results you get."
No brother, it is the opposite.
Asian knives take a shallower angle than German knives, which take a shallower angle than butcher knives.

Thanks buccaneer. You are clearly referring to the honing angle (aka sharpening angle) when you say "Asian knives take a shallower angle than German knives…" Sharpening angle is defined as the angle from the sharpening stone plane to the blade center-plane during the sharpening process (aka angle of attack) - like this:

From this perspective, you are correct in that the ~15-17 degree sharpening angle of the Asian knife is less (shallower) than the ~20-24 degree sharpening angle of the European knife.

To clarify my comment, that was clearly less precisely defined than you would prefer, I was referring to the angle of the knife edge with respect to the plane of the object being cut (cutting plane), which is perpendicular to the center plane of the blade. From this perspective, the Asian knife has a steeper angle with respect to the cutting plane - like this:

You make a good point, I should have been more careful in defining the plane of reference underpinning my comment. :doh:

In my defense, viewing any of the youtube sharpening videos that I recommended (or reading any sharpening literature) would clearly teach that the Asian blade is sharpened at approximately 15 to 17 degrees angle of attack to the stone while the European blade is sharpened at approximately 20 to 24 degrees angle of attack to the stone, so the underlying definition of "steeper angle" in my comment would be clear with first practical experience. :thumb:

Thanks again.