Phosphate Ban

LongTong said:
Just hypertension, arterial calcification, and kidney load in some compromised individuals - from a published scientific paper back in 2014. There's already enough crap in our environment so why add more?

If you're good enough to cook outstanding BBQ with proper amounts of added phosphates, you're good enough to cook outstanding BBQ without them:shocked:

It's those cooks who's samples bounce and feel like a Nerf basketball that are the problem. Just know some judges are refined enough to know the difference and the scores may just reflect that.:confused: What comment card? What are you talking about? What?
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Since its been right at 3 years from the date you gave, I wouldn't say yes" With the mounting evidence of negative health effects".
 
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LongTong- let them eat what they want. You know the score, and that's all that matters.

There is a lot of very conservative thinking in BBQ and you'll just have to navigate thru it and wave. Otherwise it's the argument of the day club
 
LongTong said:
Years don't change a thing. DDT was deemed safe once upon a time too.
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Here's the thing. Science works by building a consensus through multiple studies done by different teams that have no motivation to confirm each other's work. You can't read ANYTHING into a single study. Single studies can be flawed, and you can find a study someplace to support any point you want to make.

There was a time when we were told coffee causes cancer. Turn out it doesn't, and in fact it reduces the risk of some cancers.

It wasn't so long ago that we were told that eating a low cholesterol diet would help reduce heart attack risk for people with high cholesterol. Turns out virtually all blood cholesterol is made by your body, and diet has no impact on it.

To your point, studies said DDT was safe, but a consensus developed that said it wasn't.

I don't think there is "mounting evidence" of a phosphate problem. There IS evidence that sugar and salt are bad for you, but I don't think banning those makes any sense.

KCBS should stay out of this fight. If the FDA classifies something as "generally recognized as safe" it should be allowed, as long as the rules for cuts of meat, garnish, size of chunks in sauce, etc. are being followed.
 
CBQ said:
Here's the thing. Science works by building a consensus through multiple studies done by different teams that have no motivation to confirm each other's work. You can't read ANYTHING into a single study. Single studies can be flawed, and you can find a study someplace to support any point you want to make.

There was a time when we were told coffee causes cancer. Turn out it doesn't, and in fact it reduces the risk of some cancers.

It wasn't so long ago that we were told that eating a low cholesterol diet would help reduce heart attack risk for people with high cholesterol. Turns out virtually all blood cholesterol is made by your body, and diet has no impact on it.

To your point, studies said DDT was safe, but a consensus developed that said it wasn't.

I don't think there is "mounting evidence" of a phosphate problem. There IS evidence that sugar and salt are bad for you, but I don't think banning those makes any sense.

KCBS should stay out of this fight. If the FDA classifies something as "generally recognized as safe" it should be allowed, as long as the rules for cuts of meat, garnish, size of chunks in sauce, etc. are being followed.
Click to expand...

Mic drop.

The question was asked and the overwhelming majority shared the same answer. Don't want to hear the answer? Don't ask the question.
 
Speaking from a medical background, I can't count how many things have been branded as evil, only later to be disproved.

Phosphates are absorbed from food and are important in the body. They are involved in cell structure, energy transport and storage, vitamin function, and numerous other processes essential to health. Adding phosphates to—and removing them from—proteins in cells are both pivotal in the regulation of metabolic processes.

Phosphates are naturally found in nature. Cola drinks contain a lot of phosphate - so much, in fact, that they can cause too much phosphate in the blood. I don't see a call for a ban on Coca Cola.

Phosphate is POSSIBLY UNSAFE when taken in amounts higher than 4 grams per day for adults younger than 70 years of age and 3 grams per day for people who are older. To put this in perspective, I put 7 grams of phosphates in 5 lbs. of homemade sausage. The FDA allows 11 grams in the same amount of commercial sausage.

I do not know how many grams of phosphates are found in 2 ounces of Butcher's BBQ brisket injection (enough for one brisket), but I'll bet David has it well within FDA guidelines.

I personally do not worry about the amount of phosphates I consume from BBQ. I can't eat enough to come close to doing any harm.
 
CBQ said:
Here's the thing. Science works by building a consensus through multiple studies done by different teams that have no motivation to confirm each other's work. You can't read ANYTHING into a single study. Single studies can be flawed, and you can find a study someplace to support any point you want to make.

There was a time when we were told coffee causes cancer. Turn out it doesn't, and in fact it reduces the risk of some cancers.

It wasn't so long ago that we were told that eating a low cholesterol diet would help reduce heart attack risk for people with high cholesterol. Turns out virtually all blood cholesterol is made by your body, and diet has no impact on it.

To your point, studies said DDT was safe, but a consensus developed that said it wasn't.

I don't think there is "mounting evidence" of a phosphate problem. There IS evidence that sugar and salt are bad for you, but I don't think banning those makes any sense.

KCBS should stay out of this fight. If the FDA classifies something as "generally recognized as safe" it should be allowed, as long as the rules for cuts of meat, garnish, size of chunks in sauce, etc. are being followed.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we're in the early stages of research into this. There are several studies, just google "phosphates and health risks", pointing to health risks and the general consensus is that more research is needed.

I certainly don't trust our government when it comes to these kinds of issues because of the money involved.

Yes, there has been a lot of flip flopping on things like coconut fat, coffee, butter, etc. but there is nothing found that added phosphates are good for you. Only negative. Why take a chance?

Not to beat a dead horse but diet absolutely impacts cholesterol. It's just that some are more prone to having elevated levels than others. It was once thought that the cholesterol in shrimp was bad for us but that is now thought as being a good cholesterol.

We lost a legendary pit master out West several months ago to a heart attack aged in his low forties. It really bugged me and got me thinking about voluntary and involuntary environmental aspects of lifestyle. That's what started this whole damn thought process. Just another uninformed human being looking for answers...

R.I.P. Matt
 
One morning in the BBQ kitchen had one of my guys say to me "you know that's bad for you" referencing the sweetener I was putting in my coffee (we all gave each other crap for nothing since it was fun :-D). So I stared at him for a minute and said (giving him crap back) "really.....you are commenting on my health decisions?".

He laughed as he just came in from his 3rd smoke break of the morning and who knows how high his cholesterol was from over consumption of general food :becky:. Hard to find anyone that doesn't consume something or partake in an activity that a study says is bad. And if they actually don't they normally still over eat and are unhealthy from being overweight which leads to much more serious health issues than a little phosphate consumption........:clap2:
 
Okie Sawbones said:
Speaking from a medical background, I can't count how many things have been branded as evil, only later to be disproved.

Phosphates are absorbed from food and are important in the body. They are involved in cell structure, energy transport and storage, vitamin function, and numerous other processes essential to health. Adding phosphates to—and removing them from—proteins in cells are both pivotal in the regulation of metabolic processes.

Phosphates are naturally found in nature. Cola drinks contain a lot of phosphate - so much, in fact, that they can cause too much phosphate in the blood. I don't see a call for a ban on Coca Cola.

Phosphate is POSSIBLY UNSAFE when taken in amounts higher than 4 grams per day for adults younger than 70 years of age and 3 grams per day for people who are older. To put this in perspective, I put 7 grams of phosphates in 5 lbs. of homemade sausage. The FDA allows 11 grams in the same amount of commercial sausage.

I do not know how many grams of phosphates are found in 2 ounces of Butcher's BBQ brisket injection (enough for one brisket), but I'll bet David has it well within FDA guidelines.

I personally do not worry about the amount of phosphates I consume from BBQ. I can't eat enough to come close to doing any harm.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the great info but, my research shows that added phosphates are long chain and different from naturally occurring phosphates which are short chain and the long chain variety are much more readily absorbed during digestion...:shocked:
 
Another study

Here's yet another study or opinion from Web MD:

Nearly one third of the U.S. population eats twice as much phosphorus as the U.S. recommended daily allowance of about 700 milligrams, says Alex Chang, MD, a clinical investigator and nephrologist with the Geisinger Health System in Pennsylvania.

“There is a lot of 'extra' phosphorus in foods that are processed, and Americans eat lots of processed foods,” Chang says.

He co-wrote a 2013 study that evaluated the phosphorus level of thousands of adults without cancer, diabetes, or kidney disease. He found that eating a high amount of phosphorus is linked to more deaths in a healthy U.S. population.
 
LongTong said:
Thank you for the great info but, my research shows that added phosphates are long chain and different from naturally occurring phosphates which are short chain and the long chain variety are much more readily absorbed during digestion...:shocked:
Click to expand...

Source? Phosphates are readily hydrolyzed to monophosphates. We don't consume stuff like triphosphates, which are a glass cleaner.
 
LongTong said:
Here's yet another study or opinion from Web MD:

Nearly one third of the U.S. population eats twice as much phosphorus as the U.S. recommended daily allowance of about 700 milligrams, says Alex Chang, MD, a clinical investigator and nephrologist with the Geisinger Health System in Pennsylvania.

“There is a lot of 'extra' phosphorus in foods that are processed, and Americans eat lots of processed foods,” Chang says.

He co-wrote a 2013 study that evaluated the phosphorus level of thousands of adults without cancer, diabetes, or kidney disease. He found that eating a high amount of phosphorus is linked to more deaths in a healthy U.S. population.
Click to expand...

WebMD? Show me something from Lancet, or Annals of Internal Medicine, or the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and I might take notice.
 
Okie Sawbones said:
Source? Phosphates are readily hydrolyzed to monophosphates. We don't consume stuff like triphosphates, which are a glass cleaner.
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That was from a German study. If you search hard enough, you'll find it. TSP trisodium phosphate is the cleaner. STPP Sodium tripolyphosphate is the food additive...
That's enough to make most people's head spin and there my lie the confusion or lack of knowledge that just makes one wonder :confused:
 
Getting back to the original question, let's pretend everyone on this thread somehow resolved all their differences about Web MD studies, the nuances of short/long chains,. and etc, and agreed to ban phosphates from comp bbq.

Are KCBS/other sanctioning bodies then supposed to get into the business of governing what brand of meats teams buy based on phosphate content? If the meat inspector asks the cook if any of their pretrimmed/vacuum sealed meats contain any phosphates and they don't know, then what? Send them home?

While the discussion may be an interesting one, the whole idea of a ban is a moot point in my opinion.
 
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