As a Judge - Some judges just piss me off

[cheapbeer]

By removing the skin this judge also removed a major portion of the flavor profile. No way that those teams received a fair evaluation on the highest weighted portion of that category. No business judging.......

 

[Bob in Corona]

Sounds like a a master judge we have here in Ca that squeezes chicken with her fingers..and teaches that chit to other judges..at least this is what I've heatd from multiple teams..sorry I cook for teeth not fingers..She's gotta go IMO

Matt... your pm box if full to overflowing...

 

[Buckscent]

big_matt, thi is exactly what he did, pulled the skin off and "Pinched" a piece of chicken and put it in hos mouth.

I am glad to see some of you get fired up about this, I hope something can be done, I am only one person but I do scream loud when needed to . As I mentioned before, I don't cook I judge. From the momwent I took the class I knew I had to do the best job I can for each and every team, when I sit down at the table I remember the oath and do the best I can do to give the best and honest judging I can. Now, I have to admit there are times when the meat that is presented to me is about as bad as it can be but I still judge it to the best of my ability.

I wonder how "legal" it would be for someone to create a webpage that can keep up with judges like this, say this guy CBJ number could be put on the website and the issue that caused him to be on there. Then even coordinators can cross reference that list to the applications thay have. I think this well also hold some accountability if a judge knows he might can be put on "The List" for everyone to see

 

[bbq.tom]

I actually like the idea of a "bad judge" website. Could be listed by name, sanctioning organization (i.e., KCBS, MBN, ICBA, etc.), infraction and date. As long as there are "facts" to back up the accusation then there should no recourse legally.

Could also be used for "bad cooks" (there actually ARE a few out there), and even "bad REPs". "Bad Organizers" would need a space as well (non-payment, slow payment, poor communication, etc.).

 

[HolySmoke77]

I've cut way back on judging for the reason of many judges aren't not trained properly or they have their own agenda. I'm a master judge that has many contests under my belt, but I'm a smoker builder and a cook before judging. Have no idea how some of these people look at the meats and wish it was something else, or didn't like that cut and thinking they are contributing. People jumping from either six or nine and going way more extreme than correct. Example a table with five 9's for appearance and one clown says it's a five because I didn't get burnt ends or something as stupid. Many cooks are grumbling and the banquet is coming up. Put these complaints to good use and vote more cooks in and start asking about judge reforms. This whole deal has went from being fun and rewarding to a downright crap shoot and it should not be this way. The board needs to hear this and be held accountable. No fun in a crap shoot and many are cutting back or quitting because of it. From what I've seen we need to fix this quick and make things better. The board keeps taking judge money but has a flawed system, which is wrong. Steve

I totally agree here. I just started doing comps this year and just completed my 2nd. The ONLY thing that amazed me was just this, the scoring. I handed in a brisket and received 3 9's, two 8's and a 5? Scored 4 9's and 2 6's for taste on other meats? All I hear from seasoned vets is "get use to it", "that's comp bbq". To me its not only discouraging, but confusing. I love it so I will continue to enter more but the judging does look more like a dog show than a meat contest. I feel there should be more accountability from the seasoned judges to the newbies at the table. I suggest mandatory comment cards on any judge that scores something below a 7, also make them put their name on it.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

It should have been reported immediately on his first sample of not trying the skin. That way he could be warned.

4.46 Removing Judges
Question: On what grounds can a KCBS Rep remove a judge?
Opinion: Each and every KCBS Rep has the authority to remove a judge at any time. Grounds for
removal include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Not following the rules after being warned
2. Talking during the judging process
3. Sickness
4. Disruptive child
5. Under the age of 16
6. Intoxicated, or under the influence of controlled substance
7. Advising other judges on how to score
8. Scoring too low or too high

February 17, 2006

 

[Bigdog]

It should have been reported immediately on his first sample of not trying the skin. That way he could be warned.

4.46 Removing Judges
Question: On what grounds can a KCBS Rep remove a judge?
Opinion: Each and every KCBS Rep has the authority to remove a judge at any time. Grounds for
removal include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Not following the rules after being warned
2. Talking during the judging process
3. Sickness
4. Disruptive child
5. Under the age of 16
6. Intoxicated, or under the influence of controlled substance
7. Advising other judges on how to score
8. Scoring too low or too high

February 17, 2006

Great, but how many times does this actually get enforced?

 

[Gowan]

It should have been reported immediately on his first sample of not trying the skin. That way he could be warned.

4.46 Removing Judges
Question: On what grounds can a KCBS Rep remove a judge?
Opinion: Each and every KCBS Rep has the authority to remove a judge at any time. Grounds for
removal include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Not following the rules after being warned
2. Talking during the judging process
3. Sickness
4. Disruptive child
5. Under the age of 16
6. Intoxicated, or under the influence of controlled substance
7. Advising other judges on how to score
8. Scoring too low or too high

February 17, 2006

This does bring up an interesting point. When you are sitting at a table as a judge, you must be careful when you protest the actions of a fellow judge, lest you run afoul of #7 and be tossed yourself.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Great, but how many times does this actually get enforced?

I know reps that have...

 

[didisea]

There should be a "grievance" form that a cook could file with the Rep after you receive your scores, especially for appearance scores, because the judges are all looking at the same thing. If your appearance scores were 9,9,9,9,9,6, then the judges giving you the six should receive feedback that they scored the box 3 pts lower than everyone else at the table.

In the taste and tenderness scores, it becomes more difficult, because every piece of meat can vary in texture. But on average, it is hard to figure why the judge is giving you a 6 or below, and everyone else is giving 8 or 9's on your box.
But in all honesty, the reps will never have the time to figure out who the low scorer was.
I just factor in that some contests you are inevitably going to get judge farked. Continuing education of the judges would be the best way to keep the judging at a high quality level.

 

[bbq.tom]

Continuing education of the judges would be the best way to keep the judging at a high quality level.

Continuing education for judges should be up and running next month on the KCBS website - per the October BOD meeting.

 

[QansasjayhawQ]

This does bring up an interesting point. When you are sitting at a table as a judge, you must be careful when you protest the actions of a fellow judge, lest you run afoul of #7 and be tossed yourself.

You're not telling the judge what score to give the entry - you're advising the TC and the Rep that the judge is not scoring correctly.
Not a concern.

 

[QansasjayhawQ]

There should be a "grievance" form that a cook could file with the Rep after you receive your scores, especially for appearance scores, because the judges are all looking at the same thing. If your appearance scores were 9,9,9,9,9,6, then the judges giving you the six should receive feedback that they scored the box 3 pts lower than everyone else at the table.

In the taste and tenderness scores, it becomes more difficult, because every piece of meat can vary in texture. But on average, it is hard to figure why the judge is giving you a 6 or below, and everyone else is giving 8 or 9's on your box.
But in all honesty, the reps will never have the time to figure out who the low scorer was.
I just factor in that some contests you are inevitably going to get judge farked. Continuing education of the judges would be the best way to keep the judging at a high quality level.

I can tell you that the Table Captain reviews all scorecards at the end of judging for each category. One of the details they are looking for is a judge that is scoring out of range, just as you have described.
The Table Captain turns the scorecards in to the contest Rep and will let the Rep know if he has any 'problem' judges at his table.
I have seen twice where the contest Rep will come over and take a judge to the side between categories and have a word with them.

 

[Sawdustguy]

There should be a "grievance" form that a cook could file with the Rep after you receive your scores, especially for appearance scores, because the judges are all looking at the same thing. If your appearance scores were 9,9,9,9,9,6, then the judges giving you the six should receive feedback that they scored the box 3 pts lower than everyone else at the table.

In the taste and tenderness scores, it becomes more difficult, because every piece of meat can vary in texture. But on average, it is hard to figure why the judge is giving you a 6 or below, and everyone else is giving 8 or 9's on your box.
But in all honesty, the reps will never have the time to figure out who the low scorer was.
I just factor in that some contests you are inevitably going to get judge farked. Continuing education of the judges would be the best way to keep the judging at a high quality level.

Did it ever occur to you that he may have caught something that the others didn't? Being honest, we will never see perfect judging. Judging is done by humans remember. What is the rep going to do, take him behind the woodshed and whop his ass because he gave you a 6 in appearance?

 

[JimmyDAL]

All comps should be run like a Chili comps that requires a comment card, and I think if they don't they Are removed. Also, mandatory No Coolers, doggie bags whatsoever.

 

[SaucyWench]

A problem I see here is that tasting the skin is not a rule, it's a suggestion, like many of the guidelines given to judges. The CD says you should try the skin, not that you must, so this judge didn't disregard a rule. Same thing with a judge who doesn't take every type of pork in the box, there isn't any rule that says you must, so if one doesn't, no rule has been broken.
Until KCBS gets more specific, this kind of thing will keep happening. Then again, as long as the judge's scores are in line, it shouldn't make any difference if he tastes the sauce and skin anyway.

 

[Gowan]

A problem I see here is that tasting the skin is not a rule, it's a suggestion, like many of the guidelines given to judges. The CD says you should try the skin, not that you must, so this judge didn't disregard a rule. Same thing with a judge who doesn't take every type of pork in the box, there isn't any rule that says you must, so if one doesn't, no rule has been broken.
Until KCBS gets more specific, this kind of thing will keep happening. Then again, as long as the judge's scores are in line, it shouldn't make any difference if he tastes the sauce and skin anyway.

That is true. The information that the judge in question did actually taste the skin wasn't revealed until later in the thread, hence the phrase "if confirmed" in my original reply.

Just another reminder that there are always three sides to every story!

 

[Jorge]

I actually like the idea of a "bad judge" website. Could be listed by name, sanctioning organization (i.e., KCBS, MBN, ICBA, etc.), infraction and date. As long as there are "facts" to back up the accusation then there should no recourse legally.

Could also be used for "bad cooks" (there actually ARE a few out there), and even "bad REPs". "Bad Organizers" would need a space as well (non-payment, slow payment, poor communication, etc.).

We should burn all suspected offenders at the stake. If they live they must be innocent.

A problem I see here is that tasting the skin is not a rule, it's a suggestion, like many of the guidelines given to judges. The CD says you should try the skin, not that you must, so this judge didn't disregard a rule. Same thing with a judge who doesn't take every type of pork in the box, there isn't any rule that says you must, so if one doesn't, no rule has been broken.
Until KCBS gets more specific, this kind of thing will keep happening. Then again, as long as the judge's scores are in line, it shouldn't make any difference if he tastes the sauce and skin anyway.

That is true. The information that the judge in question did actually taste the skin wasn't revealed until later in the thread, hence the phrase "if confirmed" in my original reply.

Just another reminder that there are always three sides to every story!

^^^^^These two. Chicken skin has been optional as far back as I can remember. Judges are encouraged to sample it, but not required to. The concept of a judge being concerned about the fat contained in a couple of bites, while judging a contest, is amusing.

The conflict between that allowance and "judged as presented" has always bothered me.

 

[ModelMaker]

big_matt, thi is exactly what he did, pulled the skin off and "Pinched" a piece of chicken and put it in hos mouth.

I am glad to see some of you get fired up about this, I hope something can be done, I am only one person but I do scream loud when needed to . As I mentioned before, I don't cook I judge. From the momwent I took the class I knew I had to do the best job I can for each and every team, when I sit down at the table I remember the oath and do the best I can do to give the best and honest judging I can. Now, I have to admit there are times when the meat that is presented to me is about as bad as it can be but I still judge it to the best of my ability.

I wonder how "legal" it would be for someone to create a webpage that can keep up with judges like this, say this guy CBJ number could be put on the website and the issue that caused him to be on there. Then even coordinators can cross reference that list to the applications thay have. I think this well also hold some accountability if a judge knows he might can be put on "The List" for everyone to see

Well, being the well informed judge that you are, you obviously remember during your CBJ training your were instructed that a test for mushy product is to use your fingers as one test for tenderness.
Just like every contest you take the judges oath which states,
"I do solemnly swear to objectively and subjectively evaluate each Barbeque meat that is presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate."
There is no argument what this judge did was completly against the KCBS rules and procedures as instructed, and after being reported to the Rep after the first piece of chicken and replaced and reported to KCBS if it happened twice.
It's time for KCBS to stop being complacent with poor judges.
Ed
Ed

 

[ModelMaker]

There should be a "grievance" form that a cook could file with the Rep after you receive your scores, especially for appearance scores, because the judges are all looking at the same thing. If your appearance scores were 9,9,9,9,9,6, then the judges giving you the six should receive feedback that they scored the box 3 pts lower than everyone else at the table.

In the taste and tenderness scores, it becomes more difficult, because every piece of meat can vary in texture. But on average, it is hard to figure why the judge is giving you a 6 or below, and everyone else is giving 8 or 9's on your box.
But in all honesty, the reps will never have the time to figure out who the low scorer was.
I just factor in that some contests you are inevitably going to get judge farked. Continuing education of the judges would be the best way to keep the judging at a high quality level.

"Judge farked"

This from this point in time till eternity shall now be my favorite BBQ term.
Ed