As a Judge - Some judges just piss me off

ModelMaker said:

Well, being the well informed judge that you are, you obviously remember during your CBJ training your were instructed that a test for mushy product is to use your fingers as one test for tenderness.
Just like every contest you take the judges oath which states,
"I do solemnly swear to objectively and subjectively evaluate each Barbeque meat that is presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate."
There is no argument what this judge did was completly against the KCBS rules and procedures as instructed, and after being reported to the Rep after the first piece of chicken and replaced and reported to KCBS if it happened twice.
It's time for KCBS to stop being complacent with poor judges.
Ed
Ed

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Sorry it's not ok to me to judge chicken TENDERNESS with your fingers..period!..cooks work very hard to give you judges "bite through skin"..if the first thing you do is rip it off your not judging "as presented"..pick that fker up and take a bite..now is when you judge for tenderness..pork is a whole other animal presentation wise but again if your squeezing product trying detrmine score your judging wrong IMO..score with your mouth please!

didisea said:

There should be a "grievance" form that a cook could file with the Rep after you receive your scores, especially for appearance scores, because the judges are all looking at the same thing. If your appearance scores were 9,9,9,9,9,6, then the judges giving you the six should receive feedback that they scored the box 3 pts lower than everyone else at the table.

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Playing the devil's advocate how can you tell a judge he is wrong when the KCBS rules and training don't really specify what constitutes a 9 and what is a 6? By the KCBS scoring system a 6 is "average". This judge may consider the box as average by competition standards that he has experienced over his judging life. There also seems to be different schools of thought on the judging process. Some judges will start at a 6 or 7 and work up or down based on the meat sample. Another group of judges will only give out 8 or 9 with a 7 considered a bad score. They only tell us as judges to be consistent in our judging.

At the training class I attended the judges were all given meat to sample and score. The instructors then asked how many scored in each range and picked one person from each range to explain why they scored the way they did. No judges were told they were incorrect but were only asked to be able to justify why they gave a particular score. Any given sample had scores all over the board.

It seems the Holy Grail of KCBS is consistent judging and it doesn't seem like it will be found anytime soon.

rob g said:

Playing the devil's advocate how can you tell a judge he is wrong when the KCBS rules and training don't really specify what constitutes a 9 and what is a 6? By the KCBS scoring system a 6 is "average". This judge may consider the box as average by competition standards that he has experienced over his judging life. There also seems to be different schools of thought on the judging process. Some judges will start at a 6 or 7 and work up or down based on the meat sample. Another group of judges will only give out 8 or 9 with a 7 considered a bad score. They only tell us as judges to be consistent in our judging.

At the training class I attended the judges were all given meat to sample and score. The instructors then asked how many scored in each range and picked one person from each range to explain why they scored the way they did. No judges were told they were incorrect but were only asked to be able to justify why they gave a particular score. Any given sample had scores all over the board.

It seems the Holy Grail of KCBS is consistent judging and it doesn't seem like it will be found anytime soon.

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What I do is read the descriptions as they appear on the score card and ask myself 'does the score I'm thinking about giving this sample fit any of these descriptions?'. I avoid having any preconceptions (as much as a human being possibly can) about where to start or how to score. I try to remain a blank slate. For example, I gave each one of the six chicken entries at Bonner Springs a couple few weeks ago a 9 in appearance because each and every one looked excellent.

In my judging class, scores varied because the tenderness and flavor consistency varied from one end of the rack of ribs to the other, or from the very end of the brisket to the center. I would expect there to be variance in the scores because the product is not consistent, as it is presented to the judges in training.

big matt said:

Sorry it's not ok to me to judge chicken TENDERNESS with your fingers..period!..cooks work very hard to give you judges "bite through skin"..if the first thing you do is rip it off your not judging "as presented"..pick that fker up and take a bite..now is when you judge for tenderness..pork is a whole other animal presentation wise but again if your squeezing product trying detrmine score your judging wrong IMO..score with your mouth please!

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I didn't mean to infer that judging is done solely with fingers. I personally after taking my second bite always give the sample a poke to see how mushy or not the piece is. I also use my tongue to asses its tenderness.
I look at the leftover piece with my eyes as I'm chewing to see my bite marks. As a rule the very first thing I do is take a good sniff of the sample. Per my training I use as many of my senses as possible.

Then I come up with a score between 2 and 9 with no set beginning or ending notions. I use the written verbage of each number to help set my score. It's quite easy to decide between average,above average,very good and excellent that way.
Ed

ModelMaker said:

I didn't mean to infer that judging is done solely with fingers. I personally after taking my second bite always give the sample a poke to see how mushy or not the piece is. I also use my tongue to asses its tenderness.
I look at the leftover piece with my eyes as I'm chewing to see my bite marks. As a rule the very first thing I do is take a good sniff of the sample. Per my training I use as many of my senses as possible.

Then I come up with a score between 2 and 9 with no set beginning or ending notions. I use the written verbage of each number to help set my score. It's quite easy to decide between average,above average,very good and excellent that way.
Ed

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Beautiful..just how it should be done..I apologize for the misunderstanding

ModelMaker said:

I didn't mean to infer that judging is done solely with fingers. I personally after taking my second bite always give the sample a poke to see how mushy or not the piece is. I also use my tongue to asses its tenderness.
I look at the leftover piece with my eyes as I'm chewing to see my bite marks. As a rule the very first thing I do is take a good sniff of the sample. Per my training I use as many of my senses as possible.

Then I come up with a score between 2 and 9 with no set beginning or ending notions. I use the written verbage of each number to help set my score. It's quite easy to decide between average,above average,very good and excellent that way.
Ed

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Don't take this the wrong way, but I want you to judge my meat.

ModelMaker said:

I didn't mean to infer that judging is done solely with fingers. I personally after taking my second bite always give the sample a poke to see how mushy or not the piece is. I also use my tongue to asses its tenderness.
I look at the leftover piece with my eyes as I'm chewing to see my bite marks. As a rule the very first thing I do is take a good sniff of the sample. Per my training I use as many of my senses as possible.

Then I come up with a score between 2 and 9 with no set beginning or ending notions. I use the written verbage of each number to help set my score. It's quite easy to decide between average,above average,very good and excellent that way.
Ed

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I truly believe that MANY judges pretty much do something very similar to what you delineated above, if not the same thing, when judging chicken.
MOST judges are very conscientious when it comes to judging and truly try to do their best. The problem is that there are a few judges out there that are "bad" judges and give judging as a whole a bad name.
HOPEFULLY, when the new "education" program that you've been working on comes out it will help bring these individuals in-line, or help push them out the door.

By the way, THANK YOU Ed for all you are doing to help judging and improve the quality of judging throughout the KCBS!!!

All KCBS rules pertaining to yardbird:

CHICKEN:
Chicken may be presented with or without the skin. It may also be presented with a combination of dark and white meat or all one or the other. The type presented should not in any way affect the way it is scored. Properly smoked chicken will be moist and have a nice texture and any juice present should be clear. Smoked chicken has a tendency to produce a red coloring around the bone areas, especially in the thigh and leg meat. To some it gives the impression that is was undercooked. Always check the juices and if they are clear you will find the chicken is properly cooked. There may be, at times, a pink appearance to the breast meat if it has been smoked for some time. However, we do not judge chicken on its color as some cooks prepare their chicken in such a way the breast meat will remain white.
*
Chicken
For KCBS, this is defined as Chicken or Cornish Hen.* It can be prepared for a contest whole, half or any combination of the chicken or Cornish Hen as the cook chooses.*
*
Take small portions.* If you eat one (1) ounce of each sample, you could consume nearly two (2) pounds of meat before you are finished judging.
*
Judge the sample the way it is submitted.
*
Judge each item on its own merit.* KCBS judging is not comparative.
*
Your standard for judging should remain constant throughout the judging process for that contest.* Score every sample in each criterion on the individual reference points printed on the score card.
*
Any whole numbers, 9 (excellent) through 2 (inedible) may be used as many times as warranted during judging.*
*
Once an item has been scored, the score may not be changed without the permission of the Table Captain and Contest Rep.
*
If you question the legality of an item, quietly bring it to the attention of your Table Captain.* He/she will bring it to the attention of the Contest Reps.
*
If you do not eat chicken skin, at least taste it, if presented that way, and then discreetly discard.* Continue to judge the chicken.
*
Smoked meat, including chicken may be pink, and not be raw.* Chicken is done if the juices run clear.* Under cooked chicken will not pull apart easily.* If you suspect chicken is raw, place your napkin/paper towel against the meat.* If it comes away pink, it is not fully cooked.* You are not required to sample.* Quietly bring to the attention of the Table Captain.*
*
Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced or diced as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6) judges.* Infraction penalty: Judges not receiving a sample shall score the meat with a 1 in the Tenderness/Texture and Taste criteria.* All judges change Appearance score to 1.
*
12. Once all the entries have been scored for Appearance, the Table Captain will then pass out the entry trays for you to take a sample. Make sure you place the correct sample on the correct square. Once you have all of your samples on your judging plate, you may begin with the first sample by judging Taste and then Tenderness. Once you have completely finished scoring the first entry, you may move to the second entry and so forth. Please score carefully. You may not go back and change any scores once they’ve been recorded except under the direction of the contest Rep.
13. If you pick up a piece of meat and there are two or more pieces stuck together, do not shake, pull or cut the pieces loose. Just put them on your judging plate as they are. If you do not get a piece of meat to judge, call this to the attention of the Table Captain.
*
4.5 Breaded Chicken
Question: Can Chicken be breaded?
Opinion: At this point there is no rule against breading. It can be a part of a rub. Also, frying is
not illegal as long as the heat source is from charcoal or wood and NOT DEEP FRIED. (Rule #6
states: Parboiling and/or deep-frying competition meat is not allowed). February 17, 2006
*
As far as using fingers – this is the only mention in the rules about fingers –
*
Utensils may only be used for removal of samples from the sample box.* Barbeque is a finger food.* It is important to use all your senses when judging barbeque.
*
Due to the ambiguity of the statement “It is important to use all your senses when judging barbeque”, squishing stuff is legal.

SaucyWench said:

A problem I see here is that tasting the skin is not a rule, it's a suggestion, like many of the guidelines given to judges. The CD says you should try the skin, not that you must, so this judge didn't disregard a rule. Same thing with a judge who doesn't take every type of pork in the box, there isn't any rule that says you must, so if one doesn't, no rule has been broken.
Until KCBS gets more specific, this kind of thing will keep happening. Then again, as long as the judge's scores are in line, it shouldn't make any difference if he tastes the sauce and skin anyway.

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If you do not eat chicken skin, at least taste it, if presented that way, and then discreetly discard.* Continue to judge the chicken.

The cd may say should, but the black and white rule is clear. Stick in mouth, taste, disgard discretely.

Jorge said:

The conflict between that allowance and "judged as presented" has always bothered me.

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+1 this. Unless it is absolutely clear, then interpretations set in all it becomes more of a crap shoot for competitors, and I dont think many of them want a crap shoot... I know I dont.

For what it's worth, every other sanctioning body has these issues... It's humans; darned humans.

I see or hear of many instances of a problem judge being reported, talked to by the rep, and no apparent further consequences. The real problem seems to be not with the judges, almost of whom are very conscientious, but with KCBS for not having a system requiring that the rep report a problem judge, and a system of consequences if the problem continues. The best deterrent is punishment that is swift and certain.

From toosaucedtopork post on chicken rules.

"Judge the sample the way it is submitted."

To me that means judge the skin too, even if you don't eat(swallow) it.

smoke ninja said:

From toosaucedtopork post on chicken rules.

"Judge the sample the way it is submitted."

To me that means judge the skin too, even if you don't eat(swallow) it.

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So that means that if the parsley sticks to the chicken that a judge shouldn't pull it off before taking a bite.
NO THANKS!!!

bbq.tom said:

So that means that if the parsley sticks to the chicken that a judge shouldn't pull it off before taking a bite.
NO THANKS!!!

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IMO, if parsley sticks to the meat then it's fair game to be considered part of the product, tasted and scored accordingly. As a cook, I should not expect the judge to have to pick anything off of the product to taste it. In theroy picking off the parsley is no different than removing the chicken skin or even wiping off the suace for that matter. I quit using parsley for this reason.

Pappy Q said:

IMO, if parsley sticks to the meat then it's fair game to be considered part of the product, tasted and scored accordingly. As a cook, I should not expect the judge to have to pick anything off of the product to taste it. In theroy picking off the parsley is no different than removing the chicken skin or even wiping off the suace for that matter. I quit using parsley for this reason.

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I understand this point of view, but I don't agree with it. I think there is enough latitude in our rules to apply common sense. My goal is to judge every sample fairly, and leaving garnish stuck to a sample is not going to achieve that.

But that is the hazard of optional garnish...I know judges that take the rules literally, if garnish sticks to the food, then they judge as presented. They are completely in their rights to do this as they are following the rules as they are written.

smoke ninja said:

From toosaucedtopork post on chicken rules.

"Judge the sample the way it is submitted."

To me that means judge the skin too, even if you don't eat(swallow) it.

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And combined with "If you do not eat chicken skin, at least taste it, if presented that way, and then discreetly discard.* Continue to judge the chicken."

I think the message is clear...You HAVE to at least taste the entry as a whole including the skin. If you can't do that, why are you a judge at a meat competition.

There are many areas in the rules that are not enforced/too grey.

TooSaucedToPork said:

But that is the hazard of optional garnish...I know judges that take the rules literally, if garnish sticks to the food, then they judge as presented. They are completely in their rights to do this as they are following the rules as they are written.

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I don't disagree that this is one interpretation of the rules, and that judges are within their rights to judge this way. I just don't feel that way myself, and I have had conversations to that effect with other judges. Of course you can't tell someone they're wrong in this case, they're not, you just present your reasoning and see if it takes hold.

Of course, in the case of not eating the skin, the judges are completely wrong and that would be a conversation I would have at the table after judging was complete.

thesemicullen said:

Of course, in the case of not eating the skin, the judges are completely wrong and that would be a conversation I would have at the table after judging was complete.

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I completely understand where you're coming from on this and I don't really see any way around it. The bad judge has already turned in his scores, the TC hasn't informed the Rep and the Rep hasn't "talked to" the offending judge. Hopefully that judge will listen and change his ways after hearing what the other judges have to say.

Other than interrupting the judging process to call out that judge to the Table Captain what should we do? Seriously, I'd like to hear some ideas on this.