So when is the sauce contest going to end?

Okie Sawbones · Jun 25, 2017

Ron_L said:
You may not enjoy that, but others may. That's why I say it is a personal preference.

Straight from the judges manual:

Taste
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Taste is very subjective and therefore very hard to teach. The class will provide some guidelines and helpful hints. Does it have flavor or is it lacking flavor? You need to consider if the sample has a balance of flavors by incorporating the five (5) tastes-sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and umami.

An entry buried in sweet goo is not balanced.
[/FONT][/FONT]

ynotfehc · Jun 25, 2017

My point is that if you aren't giving feedback to the cooks, don't expect change. We can't read minds. Coming on the forum and criticising the entries you judged won't change how we cook. It's like others have said, we won't change unless it hurts the scores and we know why.
When a 7 can take someone from 10th to 20th in a category, a 7 is a big deal. The comment from 1 person giving a 7 may not change the way I cook, but it may cause me to reduce an ingredient by 1/8 or 1/4tsp and gets me over the hump, I want to hear it. If I keep getting 9s with a couple 7s thrown in, yes I do want that feedback. I don't want to be above average, I want to be excellent, I want a GC. Maybe I'm tired of being in the 15-10 overall range and the feedback from the 1 or 2 7s will help me get in the top 10 Overall. I've competed long enough to know not to make a bunch of changes off 1 comp or 1 score but we can see trends.

Okie Sawbones · Jun 25, 2017

ynotfehc said:
My point is that if you aren't giving feedback to the cooks, don't expect change. We can't read minds. Coming on the forum and criticising the entries you judged won't change how we cook. It's like others have said, we won't change unless it hurts the scores and we know why.
When a 7 can take someone from 10th to 20th in a category, a 7 is a big deal. The comment from 1 person giving a 7 may not change the way I cook, but it may cause me to reduce an ingredient by 1/8 or 1/4tsp and gets me over the hump, I want to hear it. If I keep getting 9s with a couple 7s thrown in, yes I do want that feedback. I don't want to be above average, I want to be excellent, I want a GC. Maybe I'm tired of being in the 15-10 overall range and the feedback from the 1 or 2 7s will help me get in the top 10 Overall. I've competed long enough to know not to make a bunch of changes off 1 comp or 1 score but we can see trends.

I thought that this is what the forum is for -- to exchange ideas. I'm not criticizing -- I'm bemoaning a trend. You can take from it what you want, but many judges, not just me, are very tired of sauce contests. Balance is the key.

ynotfehc · Jun 25, 2017

Discuss it here all you want, but it's not going to change the trend until we have that score next to a comment card that explains it. If you just mark down without explanation, then i dont know you had a problem with the sauce and i will continue to over sauce. On the forum, I'm assuming you are talking about someone else's chicken and ribs and not mine and will continue to over sauce. Marking scores down will do nothing without immediate feedback and have zero influence on the trend. Just as this discussion thread won't change how cooks cook either. You can bemoan the trend or give feedback when judging, only one of those has a chance to impact the trend.

Okie Sawbones · Jun 25, 2017

In a perfect world, every entry would get a comment card. In reality, the contests would need to be extended an hour or more for this to occur. It will never happen. Thus I use this forum as a sounding board. Like I said, people can take from the thread what they wish.

rob g · Jun 25, 2017

As a judge when I give a 7 it is because the meat is a decent sample but nothing special to rate an 8 or 9. There is nothing wrong with it but it doesn't stand out. The fact that the rest of the table may have given it an 8 or 9 is irrelevant. I have no idea where my score, on your piece of meat, stands on the table. I don't know that I'm low score and you would like a comment card. If I gave you a 5 I definitely would give a comment card explaining what I seen as the deficiencies in the sample. By your thinking the judges should be giving comment cards for every score they give. That is certainly a possibility but KCBS would need to change the turn-in times to give the judges the time to complete all that paperwork.

Dtmara · Jun 25, 2017

Okie Sawbones said:
I thought that this is what the forum is for -- to exchange ideas. I'm not criticizing -- I'm bemoaning a trend. You can take from it what you want, but many judges, not just me, are very tired of sauce contests. Balance is the key.

I think the point being made from the cook's perspective is, if you're bemoaning a trend, maybe give feedback in the little time you have to comment by issuing a comment card that says it's over sauced. But, if you're going to do that, be fair and don't judge the appearance down for lacking the glazed smoothness cooks are typically marked down for not having. As it's a balance for us, it is also for judges. You can't ask cooks to meet a taste standard that to accomplish will end up getting us dinged on appearance.

eap0510 · Jun 26, 2017

ynotfehc said:
Discuss it here all you want, but it's not going to change the trend until we have that score next to a comment card that explains it. If you just mark down without explanation, then i dont know you had a problem with the sauce and i will continue to over sauce. On the forum, I'm assuming you are talking about someone else's chicken and ribs and not mine and will continue to over sauce. Marking scores down will do nothing without immediate feedback and have zero influence on the trend. Just as this discussion thread won't change how cooks cook either. You can bemoan the trend or give feedback when judging, only one of those has a chance to impact the trend.

This is an interesting comment for you stated earlier that you are consistently ranking in the 20 - 15 range and are trying to figure out why you cannot get consistent top 10 finishes. Then you state that you knowingly over sauce your finished product.

Have you tried to hold back on the amount of sauce that you are applying to see if your scores go up or down?

ynotfehc · Jun 26, 2017

I didn't say I knowingly over sauce. I said unless there's a comment card I would not know I over sauced from the judges perspective, and then I would continue to do the same thing.

Ron_L · Jun 26, 2017

Okie Sawbones said:
Straight from the judges manual:

Taste
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Taste is very subjective and therefore very hard to teach. The class will provide some guidelines and helpful hints. Does it have flavor or is it lacking flavor? You need to consider if the sample has a balance of flavors by incorporating the five (5) tastes-sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and umami.

An entry buried in sweet goo is not balanced.
[/FONT][/FONT]

Again, I don't disagree. Overly sweet is not balanced, but you started this thread about overly sauced, and there is nothing in the rules about the volume of sauce. The sauce could be perfectly balanced, but just thicker than you prefer. Beyond that, I rarely eat sweets, so a lot of things are too sweet to me, but to someone who eats a lot of sweet foods, it may not be too sweet. The quote from the manual even says that this is subjective, and it that is very hard to overcome as both a judge (personal preference is part of it) and as a cook (we don't know the taste buds of the judges our food will see that day).

Still, there are teams that manage to do this weekly and win or score well consistently, so it is possible.

Okie Sawbones · Jun 26, 2017

Ron_L said:
Again, I don't disagree. Overly sweet is not balanced, but you started this thread about overly sauced, and there is nothing in the rules about the volume of sauce. The sauce could be perfectly balanced, but just thicker than you prefer. Beyond that, I rarely eat sweets, so a lot of things are too sweet to me, but to someone who eats a lot of sweet foods, it may not be too sweet. The quote from the manual even says that this is subjective, and it that is very hard to overcome as both a judge (personal preference is part of it) and as a cook (we don't know the taste buds of the judges our food will see that day).

Still, there are teams that manage to do this weekly and win or score well consistently, so it is possible.

99% of the time sauce = sweet. Otherwise I agree 100%.

Okie Sawbones · Jun 26, 2017

Dtmara said:
I think the point being made from the cook's perspective is, if you're bemoaning a trend, maybe give feedback in the little time you have to comment by issuing a comment card that says it's over sauced. But, if you're going to do that, be fair and don't judge the appearance down for lacking the glazed smoothness cooks are typically marked down for not having. As it's a balance for us, it is also for judges. You can't ask cooks to meet a taste standard that to accomplish will end up getting us dinged on appearance.

You just said the magic word, glazed. Glazed somehow got pumped up on steroids, and became the Goo Gorilla.

Here is a plate of my cupcake chicken, which the family begs me for (they don't help scrape skins). Notice it has a glaze sheen, not a goo that picks up 5 lbs. of parsley when you remove it from the entry box.

You can taste the meat, the rub, and still get an upfront sweetness.

LakeRat Bbq · Jun 26, 2017

Okie Sawbones said:
You just said the magic word, glazed. Glazed somehow got pumped up on steroids, and became the Goo Gorilla.

Here is a plate of my cupcake chicken, which the family begs me for (they don't help scrape skins). Notice it has a glaze sheen, not a goo that picks up 5 lbs. of parsley when you remove it from the entry box.

You can taste the meat, the rub, and still get an upfront sweetness.

How's it score?

fwdiii · Jun 26, 2017

I don't think the OP stated that his concern was with the sweetness of the sauces used, BUT the amount of sauce that is used, where by the sauce over powered the flavors of the rub and the meat. I agree with him. I judged an event and other judges commented that the amount of sauce used was a bit too heavy and it covered up the taste of the meat. Then we judge brisket and 2 of the entries we had CLEARLY used only salt and pepper. Two of my fellow judges, one which was a master, both stated it tasted like roast beef and they marked it down. I asked why as they finally got their "wish" to taste the meat. I scored it an 8 as it was pretty darn good as it was presented.

5am · Jun 26, 2017

Okie Sawbones said:
You just said the magic word, glazed. Glazed somehow got pumped up on steroids, and became the Goo Gorilla.

Here is a plate of my cupcake chicken, which the family begs me for (they don't help scrape skins). Notice it has a glaze sheen, not a goo that picks up 5 lbs. of parsley when you remove it from the entry box.

You can taste the meat, the rub, and still get an upfront sweetness.

To be honest, I wouldn't judge that any higher than a thigh,wing, drumstick etc. that had thicker sauce on it. The "glaze" is splotchy, not uniform at all, the skins are shriveled up on a few of them and they looks like Italian meatballs.

Okie Sawbones · Jun 26, 2017

5am said:
To be honest, I wouldn't judge that any higher than a thigh,wing, drumstick etc. that had thicker sauce on it. The "glaze" is splotchy, not uniform at all, the skins are shriveled up on a few of them and they looks like Italian meatballs.

This is home cooking, not a contest, used only to show a glaze, not a goo. :doh: I could do the Kitchen Bouquet trick if I wanted to darken my glaze and make it more smooth, but the hogs at my table don't even leave the bones. :becky:

5am · Jun 26, 2017

Okie Sawbones said:
This is home cooking, not a contest, used only to show a glaze, not a goo. :doh:

You're in the competition section of a forum, critiquing cooks, and used yours as an example of what the "glaze" should look like in a competition.

Okie Sawbones · Jun 26, 2017

5am said:
You're in the competition section of a forum, critiquing cooks, and used yours as an example of what the "glaze" should look like in a competition.

Yes, the comp forum is for cooks AND judges, and no, my example is only to show the light sheen, not a comp entry, as already stated. Please folks, let's not start with the chest thumping drill. That gets old.

I came on here to tell cooks they are over saucing, and that it is not just my opinion. If you want the sauce dripping, go for it, no skin off of my nose. Me and other judges will just keep handing out those 7s when we can't taste the meat.

mattmountz94 · Jun 26, 2017

Well that kept me busy for 10minutes

Burnt at Both Endz · Jun 26, 2017

Okie Sawbones said:
I came on here to tell cooks they are over saucing, and that it is not just my opinion. If you want the sauce dripping, go for it, no skin off of my nose. Me and other judges will just keep handing out those 7s when we can't taste the meat......

Do some of us cooks a favor on this forum,keep your opinion to yourself and give out 6's with a comment card telling the cook that it was over sauced, if that's your opinion...........

So when is the sauce contest going to end?

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