dadsr4
somebody shut me the fark up.
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2010
- Location
- Howell, MI
I, at least, can also see them.
Throwdown Voting Blind Poll
- Thread starter SmokinAussie
- Start date
That's a nice history, Ron. You covered just about everything except the DQs. Most of the clusterfarks we've had have been over DQs, either mods DQing entries or people wanting entries DQed. Early on, we had a tradition of "let the voters decide," and I don't see how this system was ever broken. The DQs were something that Biggie wanted to give some legitimacy to the entries -- I don't exactly know why that was needed. We had long discussions and several PMs. My primary argument is that it would place too much pressure on the mods to try to enforce these rules, which are somewhat arbitrary.* If the voters have the decision and the mod simply says, "hey, don't blame me; it's what the voters decided," then you avoid a lot of hate-PMs. In the end, Biggie said that he envisioned the DQ being "rarely, if ever, used." Well, that evolved over time. There have been lots of DQs, and sometimes even multiple DQs in a single TD! What message does it give when a Noob finally works up the courage to enter a TD and is then DQed? Well, that this is a private club, and unless you know all the workings, then go away. It doesn't make for a warm, friendly environment. How many come back after being DQ'ed? How many people have been alienated because of DQs? If you're worried about TD popularity, maybe this is something to consider.
*Interpretation of what the definition of BBQing/grilling is one example of the arbitrariness. What does it mean, exactly? For the purposes of these TDs, the definition has changed and what at one time earned a DQ, today does not. I'm not going to give examples as I'm not a fan of DQs (as you can tell). What does it say when one person is DQ'ed for breaking an arbitrary rule and someone else is not? In that last clusterfark, there were pages of people just trying to figure out what the rules are and waiting for the mods to figure out themselves. In the current TD, we've got a situation where Smarties are not allowed as a green vegetable, but maybe M&Ms are... unless they're not. Who knows? I have no idea. I found out recently that this is considered to be fresh fish.
:laugh:
** This could be so streamlined and friendlier if we just let the voters decide. Incidentally, I brought up this issue many times in the past and was always shouted down. I should note that CD did most of the shouting at me. In the end, it seemed that he was arguing against the DQs. Could it be time to rethink this issue or is it just me (and perhaps now CD, who is no longer with us) barking up the wrong tree again?
*Interpretation of what the definition of BBQing/grilling is one example of the arbitrariness. What does it mean, exactly? For the purposes of these TDs, the definition has changed and what at one time earned a DQ, today does not. I'm not going to give examples as I'm not a fan of DQs (as you can tell). What does it say when one person is DQ'ed for breaking an arbitrary rule and someone else is not? In that last clusterfark, there were pages of people just trying to figure out what the rules are and waiting for the mods to figure out themselves. In the current TD, we've got a situation where Smarties are not allowed as a green vegetable, but maybe M&Ms are... unless they're not. Who knows? I have no idea. I found out recently that this is considered to be fresh fish.
:laugh:
** This could be so streamlined and friendlier if we just let the voters decide. Incidentally, I brought up this issue many times in the past and was always shouted down. I should note that CD did most of the shouting at me. In the end, it seemed that he was arguing against the DQs. Could it be time to rethink this issue or is it just me (and perhaps now CD, who is no longer with us) barking up the wrong tree again?
DUBBAGA
is One Chatty Farker
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2011
- Location
- Beaumont...
Neither smarties nor M&M's should be allowed... however, this should
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2014
- Location
- Detroit...
I wouldn't mind the one thread method. We do have a place to see entries, nothing but entries, its the first post in the polling thread.
Your idea of no DQs is intriguing. Maybe save them for grand offenses like entries not cooked that week or a dish not cook with a bbq/grill (sorry no optigrill).
We operated many years without DQs and it seemed to work fine. If something was interpreted to have broken the rules, those people simply didn't vote for it. The chicken burger was one instance. It was DQ'ed because it was not a burger in the mod's view. We all fussed and it was un-DQ'ed. In the end, it didn't receive any votes. What was the problem with that?
That's a nice history, Ron. You covered just about everything except the DQs. Most of the clusterfarks we've had have been over DQs, either mods DQing entries or people wanting entries DQed. Early on, we had a tradition of "let the voters decide," and I don't see how this system was ever broken. The DQs were something that Biggie wanted to give some legitimacy to the entries -- I don't exactly know why that was needed. We had long discussions and several PMs. My primary argument is that it would place too much pressure on the mods to try to enforce these rules, which are somewhat arbitrary.* If the voters have the decision and the mod simply says, "hey, don't blame me; it's what the voters decided," then you avoid a lot of hate-PMs. In the end, Biggie said that he envisioned the DQ being "rarely, if ever, used." Well, that evolved over time. There have been lots of DQs, and sometimes even multiple DQs in a single TD! What message does it give when a Noob finally works up the courage to enter a TD and is then DQed? Well, that this is a private club, and unless you know all the workings, then go away. It doesn't make for a warm, friendly environment. How many come back after being DQ'ed? How many people have been alienated because of DQs? If you're worried about TD popularity, maybe this is something to consider.
*Interpretation of what the definition of BBQing/grilling is one example of the arbitrariness. What does it mean, exactly? For the purposes of these TDs, the definition has changed and what at one time earned a DQ, today does not. I'm not going to give examples as I'm not a fan of DQs (as you can tell). What does it say when one person is DQ'ed for breaking an arbitrary rule and someone else is not? In that last clusterfark, there were pages of people just trying to figure out what the rules are and waiting for the mods to figure out themselves. In the current TD, we've got a situation where Smarties are not allowed as a green vegetable, but maybe M&Ms are... unless they're not. Who knows? I have no idea. I found out recently that this is considered to be fresh fish.
:laugh:
** This could be so streamlined and friendlier if we just let the voters decide. Incidentally, I brought up this issue many times in the past and was always shouted down. I should note that CD did most of the shouting at me. In the end, it seemed that he was arguing against the DQs. Could it be time to rethink this issue or is it just me (and perhaps now CD, who is no longer with us) barking up the wrong tree again?
Thanks, Gore... I didn't bring up DQs because they weren't a point of discussion in this thread (until now :-D), or if they were, I missed it.
My feeling is a little bit different. Why have rules if you aren't going to enforce them, and disqualifying an entry that violates the rules is an offshoot of that. To take that one step further, why have TD moderators if we don't have any rules? Besides the clerical work of posting threads and erecting polls, the reason we have TD Moderators instead of TD coordinators is that they are here to enforce the TD rules.
BTW, Fresh and fresh-frozen are different to me :-D
mchar69
Quintessential Chatty Farker
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2014
- Location
- Kensingt...
I like hidden polls. I am a newb and have no influence, but I have stated as such in the Masters TD thread.
The current Game thread has guys buying cuddly animal parts which would be game if it weren't farm raised, and I'm not sure how that worked, but it doesn't matter - we know who's gonna win, he has THE best entry, and it's not me.
Keep it secret. And no more shenanigans.
The current Game thread has guys buying cuddly animal parts which would be game if it weren't farm raised, and I'm not sure how that worked, but it doesn't matter - we know who's gonna win, he has THE best entry, and it's not me.
Keep it secret. And no more shenanigans.
So far, I'm really enjoying this frank exchange of views in such a mature way... even though Frank hasn't said anything yet.
I'm with Gore on the DQ thingy. It's no surprise that I tend to always fall on his side of reasoning. It's not because he's a cleverdick. It's because he's never lost the love to have some fun.
I've always advocated the same things that were advocated in the beginning, even though I didn't start right at the beginning. It was this. "Have FUN and let the voters decide"
Ron, regarding TD Mods. Maybe we should start to think of them as co-ordinators! Make so they don't have the power to DQ. That means that the "rules" of the TD are for voter discretion only. Voters will take this into account and the general results will reflect the interpretation of those rules by the voters. Saves a lot of Bullcr@p when people know they can't get anyone else DQ'd and that entrants will tend not to enter anything drastically outside the interpretation of the entry rules because they want to have a shot at winning.
The TD Mods have enough to do without all that cra@p. They erect the poles, a selfless enough job. You make them a MOD and all of a sudden they have authority and we end up with DQ's and people complaining about other entries, vote shilling and goodness knows what else. Let the voters decide. Let the co-ordinaters co-ordinate. It's so simple it just might work.
It may even make the voting format irrelevent.
Cheers!
Bill
I'm with Gore on the DQ thingy. It's no surprise that I tend to always fall on his side of reasoning. It's not because he's a cleverdick. It's because he's never lost the love to have some fun.
I've always advocated the same things that were advocated in the beginning, even though I didn't start right at the beginning. It was this. "Have FUN and let the voters decide"
Ron, regarding TD Mods. Maybe we should start to think of them as co-ordinators! Make so they don't have the power to DQ. That means that the "rules" of the TD are for voter discretion only. Voters will take this into account and the general results will reflect the interpretation of those rules by the voters. Saves a lot of Bullcr@p when people know they can't get anyone else DQ'd and that entrants will tend not to enter anything drastically outside the interpretation of the entry rules because they want to have a shot at winning.
The TD Mods have enough to do without all that cra@p. They erect the poles, a selfless enough job. You make them a MOD and all of a sudden they have authority and we end up with DQ's and people complaining about other entries, vote shilling and goodness knows what else. Let the voters decide. Let the co-ordinaters co-ordinate. It's so simple it just might work.
It may even make the voting format irrelevent.
Cheers!
Bill
That TD was originally a Wild Game Meat TD, but enough members didn't have access to wild game that it was changed to game meat, eliminating the requirement for the animal to have been wild and harvested by the entrant.
It's going to take a lot to convince me of that, Bill, but I only have on vote :-D We can't even agree on the what the TD category means 90% of the time. I can't imagine letting the voters decide the rules :-D
Also, I guess I don't see the correlation between having a set of rules enforced my the moderators and people complaining about other entries, vote shilling and goodness knows what else. People will still do those things regardless of who is enforcing the rules. I also don't see the correlation between having mods enforce the rules and fun. Pretty much every country has rules and someone to enforce them, and people still have fun.
I agree that this is good discussion. But, we've had these same discussions before and couldn't come to agreement on changes so things kept going the way they were. We don't, and probably won't all agree on some of these so we just have to figure out the best way to keep the TDs going and make them fun (within the rules, which, to me, aren't really that restrictive).
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Location
- NEW ENGLAND
I stepped back for a while and it seems a few others have as well.
I think y'all have lost your farkin minds.
Look at it from the ground up rather than top down.
Cook a steak between now and 7 days.
Cook some pork between now and 7 days.
Cook a fakin soup with bbqed meat between now and 7 days.
Let the categories be simple, fark "maple" syrup, and all that jazz.
I think y'all have lost your farkin minds.
Look at it from the ground up rather than top down.
Cook a steak between now and 7 days.
Cook some pork between now and 7 days.
Cook a fakin soup with bbqed meat between now and 7 days.
Let the categories be simple, fark "maple" syrup, and all that jazz.
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Location
- NEW ENGLAND
Or even wild game to game?
Why does everyone need be included?
If ya can't kill it, ya can't enter? What's wrong with that?
Why does everyone need be included?
If ya can't kill it, ya can't enter? What's wrong with that?
Ron, do you really not remember the first several years of the TDs when the voters did enforce the rules with their votes?
How many Noobs in the last few years worked up the courage to enter a TD only to be DQ'ed because of some special rule? What percentage came back to try again after being kicked in the balls? What message does this send to others thinking about competing in the TDs? You mentioned in a previous post that participation in the TDs was waning (hence, the prizes). Do you think maybe it could be waning because of the DQs or do you think it's a complete coincidence that participation in the TDs waned when DQs were becoming more numerous?
It's interesting that you bring up the "Special" rules. The mods don't make those, the TD participants do. AND, quite a while ago it was decided by the TD participants that the mods should enforce them.
That sure sounds like the voters decided to me :-D
That sure sounds like the voters decided to me :-D
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2013
- Location
- Port...
I must say that after reading all the posts in this thread so far, if I enteried every throwdown with the sole intent and purpose of winning, I would no longer be a member of this site, I would have left with Elvis. I participate in the TD's because the particular cook is either some what of a personal challenge, a cook that requires a certain type of cooking method, such as a "Caveman" style, or a cook that appeals to me for the mere fun of it. I also helps in my weekly meal plan, lets face it we all gotta eat!
I do agree with Phizzy in that voting can be induced by ingredient choices. There are indeed ingredients that effect voter reactions. I know from my own experience that many times I will enter a rather complicated cook utilizing the required ingredients in a non conventional manner and not always to my polling advantage but it met my own personal challenge and I was pleased with outcome. I learned from other cooking challenges that it isn't about the final product, but rather about the use of the main ingredient. Case in point, I entered a Lobster Festival Cook-off and prepared lobster tails wrapped in a beautiful bacon weave. Out of 12 different restaurant chefs I took 2nd. I was kind of shocked because the judges actually came to each station and viewed the entries while being plated. They were in awe of the bacon weave I presented. After the awrds ceremony I spoke with the judges and most told me that they loved the dish, the presentation, but what they loved the most was the bacon weave, "but this wasn't a bacon contest, it was about the lobster."
The ballot style, in my opinion, is not my choice, however I do have an opinion based on my personal experiences. All I know is what I know, and that so far has been the open ballot. Has the open viewable option swayed my vote? Yes and no, here's why.
I have been involved in these TD's since I joined this fine forum. I stumbled around posting entries in the wrong places and couldn't figure out, for the life of me how, to post pictures. The open type ballot afforded me the opportunity to see how miserably my entries were doing, so that I could make more informed, inappropriate, comments to the seasoned veterans at the time.:boxing:
I couldn't wait for the new weekly TD to be announced so that I could plan how I was going to improve over my previous entry. I would go shopping, buy the best ingredients, emulate the process the great cooks had so eloquently detailed in the previous weeks entries and then take a pile of crappy pictures, only to post my entry in the wrong thread and recieve an email from one of the Mods stating " You posted your entry in the wrong forum! :doh: or Is this an entry? Then after several feeble attempts at trying to remedy the situation myself, out of pure pity comes another PM " I have moved it for you" Hallaluah there is a God! :clap: Only to post up a brick and have the dubious honor of entering the Zero's club. :shocked:
My only saving grace throughout this whole ordeal was the ability to see how poorly I was doing in the polls. If they were blind at that point, I am so stupid that I would have been sure, had absolutely no doubt, that I was winning, only to be crushed on Monday when I was NOT announced as the winner, raved about as the most awesome cook in the world, and the leading contender currently for a James Beard Award.
So as you can tell, I do have my opinion and the Mods are essential for the successful operation of this forum in particular. I can't tell you how much I appreciate what they have done in the past and how they continue to assist us all at the present.
As for swaying my vote, I can honestly say being able to see the votes cast previously does assist me in whom I vote for. Here are some examples. When a poll is a runaway train other entries of equal quality deserve recognition. The opposite is also true, the coveted Zero is in my opinion far better than 1 vote. I don't pride myself in denying a contestant a zero unless we are friends and that person understands that it is done in fun.
Now I am done with my rant,
Thanks
Jed
I do agree with Phizzy in that voting can be induced by ingredient choices. There are indeed ingredients that effect voter reactions. I know from my own experience that many times I will enter a rather complicated cook utilizing the required ingredients in a non conventional manner and not always to my polling advantage but it met my own personal challenge and I was pleased with outcome. I learned from other cooking challenges that it isn't about the final product, but rather about the use of the main ingredient. Case in point, I entered a Lobster Festival Cook-off and prepared lobster tails wrapped in a beautiful bacon weave. Out of 12 different restaurant chefs I took 2nd. I was kind of shocked because the judges actually came to each station and viewed the entries while being plated. They were in awe of the bacon weave I presented. After the awrds ceremony I spoke with the judges and most told me that they loved the dish, the presentation, but what they loved the most was the bacon weave, "but this wasn't a bacon contest, it was about the lobster."
The ballot style, in my opinion, is not my choice, however I do have an opinion based on my personal experiences. All I know is what I know, and that so far has been the open ballot. Has the open viewable option swayed my vote? Yes and no, here's why.
I have been involved in these TD's since I joined this fine forum. I stumbled around posting entries in the wrong places and couldn't figure out, for the life of me how, to post pictures. The open type ballot afforded me the opportunity to see how miserably my entries were doing, so that I could make more informed, inappropriate, comments to the seasoned veterans at the time.:boxing:
I couldn't wait for the new weekly TD to be announced so that I could plan how I was going to improve over my previous entry. I would go shopping, buy the best ingredients, emulate the process the great cooks had so eloquently detailed in the previous weeks entries and then take a pile of crappy pictures, only to post my entry in the wrong thread and recieve an email from one of the Mods stating " You posted your entry in the wrong forum! :doh: or Is this an entry? Then after several feeble attempts at trying to remedy the situation myself, out of pure pity comes another PM " I have moved it for you" Hallaluah there is a God! :clap: Only to post up a brick and have the dubious honor of entering the Zero's club. :shocked:
My only saving grace throughout this whole ordeal was the ability to see how poorly I was doing in the polls. If they were blind at that point, I am so stupid that I would have been sure, had absolutely no doubt, that I was winning, only to be crushed on Monday when I was NOT announced as the winner, raved about as the most awesome cook in the world, and the leading contender currently for a James Beard Award.
So as you can tell, I do have my opinion and the Mods are essential for the successful operation of this forum in particular. I can't tell you how much I appreciate what they have done in the past and how they continue to assist us all at the present.
As for swaying my vote, I can honestly say being able to see the votes cast previously does assist me in whom I vote for. Here are some examples. When a poll is a runaway train other entries of equal quality deserve recognition. The opposite is also true, the coveted Zero is in my opinion far better than 1 vote. I don't pride myself in denying a contestant a zero unless we are friends and that person understands that it is done in fun.
Now I am done with my rant,
Thanks
Jed
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2014
- Location
- Detroit...
Nice points jed, thanks for sharing with the group. Hearing you've had trouble gives hope to us all.
If I understand correctly results of how many and who voted are to be published at the end of voting.
If I understand correctly results of how many and who voted are to be published at the end of voting.
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Location
- NEW ENGLAND
I agree with a lot of what jed said, and gore, and Ron.
My prior posts were a bit curt. Allow me to elaborate.
First off, I've lost my mind too, many times, and it's now ongoing...
I feel a very large part of the TD's is viewership. Even more so than participation in entering.
When a category is in my wheelhouse, I consider entering and challenging myself. When it's not I also LOVE watching people cook something I cannot, and am inspired to possibly do so in the future.
I think THAT is the positive aspect of the TD's. Inspiration.
Whole hog and wild game meat come to mind.
It feels many changes were made to attract or accolade a larger participant base, but with that came more legislation, regulation, and ultimately, argumentation.
I do not like the split thread. This is all for fun, right? It's selective by nature. So let people select to be participate, just watch, just vote, or all three. Why regulate it?
Blind vote, seems good!it would be nice to see voting results after you've voted.
It's really fun to watch the trainwrecks.
My prior posts were a bit curt. Allow me to elaborate.
First off, I've lost my mind too, many times, and it's now ongoing...
I feel a very large part of the TD's is viewership. Even more so than participation in entering.
When a category is in my wheelhouse, I consider entering and challenging myself. When it's not I also LOVE watching people cook something I cannot, and am inspired to possibly do so in the future.
I think THAT is the positive aspect of the TD's. Inspiration.
Whole hog and wild game meat come to mind.
It feels many changes were made to attract or accolade a larger participant base, but with that came more legislation, regulation, and ultimately, argumentation.
I do not like the split thread. This is all for fun, right? It's selective by nature. So let people select to be participate, just watch, just vote, or all three. Why regulate it?
Blind vote, seems good!it would be nice to see voting results after you've voted.
It's really fun to watch the trainwrecks.
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Location
- NEW ENGLAND
Oh and regarding prizes.
It's really cool of the sponsors to give them away. Kudos!
However, if a member will stoop so low as to cheat in any way and carry that with them for 10 dollar bag of rub, they ain't a brethren, and they won't last.
It's really cool of the sponsors to give them away. Kudos!
However, if a member will stoop so low as to cheat in any way and carry that with them for 10 dollar bag of rub, they ain't a brethren, and they won't last.
boogiesnap
Babbling Farker
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Location
- NEW ENGLAND
Did I just say kudos????
Well I wrote up a big post this morning and my PC promptly locked.....so It did not happen!
Here goes.
I entered the TD's because I thought it was fun. I learned so much from other entries and like others failed miserably. I don't use a fancy camera and still use my phone for pics. For me it is not about photography or touching up a photo. What you see is what it is!
For me the voting is about the whole cook not just the entry picture. Thats my choice. if others want to vote on a picture and not look at the cook - Thats fine - its there choice. I wont vote for myself because I think it is wrong - not a rule. It's a charactor thing
Besides it making me get batter and bring more in my entries, the best part is the friends I have made in these contests. Many cases there have been PM's with other members especially if it is a close race and the sportsmanship is awesome. sometimes it is public and othrs is in PM. But it is honest brotherhood.
I dont really care how it is decided to go but I would miss the bantering and the opertunity for a Mango!
On prizes, that is not why I do it. It's nice and rewarding but the first win was a n honor to be selected out of the other great entries we have every TD.
I am still going to smoke, cook, eat, drink, hunt, fish, and hang out at a fire. Sharing that with my friends is a bonus.
I appreciate all that this fourm is and the mods for making it so we can have these. They do really deserve recognition.
sorry if I rambled - Wish you all the best
SD
Here goes.
I entered the TD's because I thought it was fun. I learned so much from other entries and like others failed miserably. I don't use a fancy camera and still use my phone for pics. For me it is not about photography or touching up a photo. What you see is what it is!
For me the voting is about the whole cook not just the entry picture. Thats my choice. if others want to vote on a picture and not look at the cook - Thats fine - its there choice. I wont vote for myself because I think it is wrong - not a rule. It's a charactor thing
Besides it making me get batter and bring more in my entries, the best part is the friends I have made in these contests. Many cases there have been PM's with other members especially if it is a close race and the sportsmanship is awesome. sometimes it is public and othrs is in PM. But it is honest brotherhood.
I dont really care how it is decided to go but I would miss the bantering and the opertunity for a Mango!
On prizes, that is not why I do it. It's nice and rewarding but the first win was a n honor to be selected out of the other great entries we have every TD.
I am still going to smoke, cook, eat, drink, hunt, fish, and hang out at a fire. Sharing that with my friends is a bonus.
I appreciate all that this fourm is and the mods for making it so we can have these. They do really deserve recognition.
sorry if I rambled - Wish you all the best
SD
