Judge classes suspended?

[SDAR]

I really do not see "consistent" scoring when 6 subjective judges are scoring especially at larger contests. It is always going to be subjective with a very small statistical sampling. My brisket that won out of 108 teams, although still subjective, was judged by at least 30 judges on multiple tables. Why is that type of judging set aside?...preliminary, middle and final tables?

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

Sanctioning bodies. See you in Irving end of month?

 

[EverettBBQ]

My read on the cessation follows another avenue. Besides placing a temporary limit, it looks to be an attempt to also bring the teaching back into uniformity. Based on posts in other threads, I sincerely hope KCBS' efforts will help improve the consistency amongst the judging population.

It should be easy to get a 8 or 9 on appearance.
Just takes practice :roll:
I know this to be true with our team, great appearance, **** tast and tenderness.
Simple to judge.

Tenderness is simple.
Very easy to teacth. :sad:
This is hard to do, but easy to judge. :mod:

Now, taste:shocked:

Do you teacth this:twisted::bored::bow::mad2:ray:
No


So get off the judges butt, the reason it's a contest, is because it comes down to taste and eary one as a opinion and a!! And opinion :mod:

 

[SDAR]

Sanctioning bodies. See you in Irving end of month?

No but I'll probably be in San Angelo on the 7th. I bet the winner gets at least 25 tastings to determine the winner. Novel huh?

 

[Southern Boy]

I hope the CBJ committee will look at some regional balancing of judges and locate the classes strategically to match the CBJ population with the number of contests.

I live in the Southeast and feel we must be at a saturation point in this part of the country. That is based on how hard it has become to get accepted as a judge at some of the events I do every year. For a lot of them you pretty much have to apply within a few days of applications being accepted, or you have to be a returning judge. Whenever I see a CBJ class scheduled at a regular event I know that one is likely to be even harder to get into.

The good news is, I can't remember the last time I did a contest that was not 100% CBJ-judged. None of the brother-in-law judges you used to see a few years ago.

There is a clear need to grow the membership, and I will try to say this carefully, but you can't help but notice a lot of judges are getting up in years. Let's just say there seem to be far more older judges than younger ones. You need new judges to fill the ranks, but I can't see any point in certifying more people than you can possibly find seats for at judging tables.

 

[Bubba]

When you have 6 different people judging it's a crap shoot at trying to please them all. I believe that what needs to be done when it comes to the judging process is to find some way of standardizing the process. It all starts with the judging class KCBS needs to put forth 1 approved example across the country to be used at all classes.

 

[bbq.tom]

I believe that what needs to be done when it comes to the judging process is to find some way of standardizing the process. It all starts with the judging class KCBS needs to put forth 1 approved example across the country to be used at all classes.

And that is precisely why KCBS has gone to the PowerPoint CBJ training that is used for ALL CBJ classes, and the CBJ Meeting recording that is played at ALL KCBS contests.
The problem is NOT the new judges and how they are being trained, it is how the "old" judges were trained and the differences for the "starting point" that they utilize for scoring the entries.
Until "retraining" of the "old" judges is accomplished, there will always be a variation in starting points being used by judges.
Cessation of new CBJ training classes may help existing judges in overpopulated (with CBJs) areas, but will NOT fix the existing problem of judge score inconsistency.

 

[Podge]

In my opinion, having 30 judges cancel on you is not indicative of needing more people to be certified as judges, but of needing more of those that are already certified to honor their commitment to come judge your contest.

This is why I think judging should require a deposit. You show up to judge, you get your money back. You don't, then the organizer gets to keep that money for his troubles for finding your a$$ a replacement.

 

[Jorge]

Being a pessimist, I would not expect it to last very long (no one on the BOD would willingly kill the fatted cow), produce results of consistency (makes no sense to lose money by retraining current judges at no charge), have any impact on cooks number one complaint, consistency. We will probably see a new CD that must be played (got one now that doesn't work?) that will assuage shallow thinkers (such as the Tin Man) and in general follow the normal BOD follow thru (see vote of 2011 regarding regional representation that was ignored).

Most will understand why I chose not to renew my 12 year family membership and cut down drastically on my competing. It's really not worth it any more. I refuse to fund the international effort to grow our sport when we can't even do something simple in the US, DEVELOPE a consistent judging program !!!!!

The term I was elected to has expired to I feel a little more free to speak. I resigned for health and family issues.

Mack, you have every right to say what you did. That being said, I don't remember a sitting President ever not retaining that position. I don't ever remember a board as diverse as this one, or having as many cooks represented. I'll wait to see what happens.

 

[Bob in Corona]

And that is precisely why KCBS has gone to the PowerPoint CBJ training that is used for ALL CBJ classes, and the CBJ Meeting recording that is played at ALL KCBS contests.
The problem is NOT the new judges and how they are being trained, it is how the "old" judges were trained and the differences for the "starting point" that they utilize for scoring the entries.
Until "retraining" of the "old" judges is accomplished, there will always be a variation in starting points being used by judges.
Cessation of new CBJ training classes may help existing judges in overpopulated (with CBJs) areas, but will NOT fix the existing problem of judge score inconsistency.

You have a good point. I do believe the current method can be improved somewhat, not only during the class but afterwards in the tents. The only legal scoring process is based on the words describing the possible choices - Excellent, Very Good, Above Average, Average, etc... Nowhere in the current 2015 KCBS rules are the phrases "score down" and "score up" found. Yet those phrase are in constant use in the tent and in forum and other discussions and give the impression there is some 'starting' number used in scoring. Excommunicating those phrases from BBQ would be an Excellent first step.

 

[Derussi]

From the Feb board minutes:

BIGLER, I MOVE TO HAVE ALL CBJ TRAINERS TOGETHER TO STANDARDIZE TRAINING METHODS AT A MANDATORY MEETING FOR ALL CBJ INSTRUCTORS AND ASSISTANTS AT A REASONABLE RATE. 2ND POLSON. PASSED.

This would seem that KCBS recognizes that a problem exists and are attempting to get all instructors on the same page. Of course this doesn't address the problem of already certified judges but may be a start in the retraining / recertifying of CBJ's.

 

[Podge]

From the Feb board minutes:

BIGLER, I MOVE TO HAVE ALL CBJ TRAINERS TOGETHER TO STANDARDIZE TRAINING METHODS AT A MANDATORY MEETING FOR ALL CBJ INSTRUCTORS AND ASSISTANTS AT A REASONABLE RATE. 2ND POLSON. PASSED.

This would seem that KCBS recognizes that a problem exists and are attempting to get all instructors on the same page. Of course this doesn't address the problem of already certified judges but may be a start in the retraining / recertifying of CBJ's.

This idea sounds great.. Then let's just make all previous CBJ's status null and void until they get retrained. I'd rather spend my $1,000 a weekend knowing all judges are on the same page.

 

[ModelMaker]

This idea sounds great.. Then let's just make all previous CBJ's status null and void until they get retrained. I'd rather spend my $1,000 a weekend knowing all judges are on the same page.

Great idea! Lets do this right after ALL cook teams show they are capable of receiving 12 - 9's week after week...
Ed

 

[Podge]

Great idea! Lets do this right after ALL cook teams show they are capable of receiving 12 - 9's week after week...
Ed

I would rather be judged by 6 judges who are all trained exactly the same, than to have a table of 6 judges trained 6 different ways. I don't think that is asking too much. A sanctioning body of any type that has been around for 25+ years should already be providing that.

 

[Smokedelic]

Great idea! Lets do this right after ALL cook teams show they are capable of receiving 12 - 9's week after week...
Ed

I hate to break it to ya', but there's a helluva lot more judges that think cook teams are deserving of receiving all 9s then there are cook teams thinking they are deserving of receiving all 9s. The 180 club and 700 club have gotten pretty watered down the last several years, and I think that has much more to do with who scores the food than who cooks it.

 

[5string]

As a judge, I am absolutely in favor of retraining or at least a refresher class every other year or so. I have judged in both the east and west coast where there are noticable differences in scoring methodology. I have talked to many judges about their criteria and get more confused each time. I've also had the pleasure of judging a few events under Randy Bigler as rep. He is an absolutely no BS guy who will get this sorted out and fixed.
just my 2 cents...

 

[ModelMaker]

Ok, ok I was being a bit snarky there, but decertify all judges? Really?
As all of you should know by now there is indeed a CBJ review in the works that should help have all judges somewhat on the same page. That alone will not FIX anything but it will help. 7-8-9 judges are a huge problem in my eyes and should also be addressed. There will always be items that need to be worked on and I see KCBS being interested in doing so.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water but work together to make competition BBQ all that it should be.
Ed

 

[Podge]

Ok, ok I was being a bit snarky there, but decertify all judges? Really?
As all of you should know by now there is indeed a CBJ review in the works that should help have all judges somewhat on the same page. That alone will not FIX anything but it will help. 7-8-9 judges are a huge problem in my eyes and should also be addressed. There will always be items that need to be worked on and I see KCBS being interested in doing so.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water but work together to make competition BBQ all that it should be.
Ed

Sometimes fixing something means starting over.
7-8-9 judges are a problem.. so are the judges who score as 5-6-7 when it deserves higher. I see the issue as a hugely complex problem. Fixing things here and there, will take forever, and may not work. I think the slate needs to be wiped clean, go back to the drawing board, get everyone on the exact same page. Just quickly rip the Band-Aid off.. The Judges who really care about this hobby, and do a great job would stick with it. The others would say screw it, and we don't want those type of judges around anyway.

 

[Funtimebbq]

It is that CBJ review, or the threat of being reviewed, causing the overall higher scoring. Judges do not want to be relegated (using an English soccer term) for being a low scoring judge and having to go through retraining.

I am in favor of putting a hold on CBJ classes simply so current judges will have the opportunity to judge more frequently. Better judges come from judging more contests, not from sitting in a class learning about red leaf lettuce. Classes cannot teach taste and with only one or two cooks at a class, it is very hard to teach tenderness. Only by being able to judge will people gain that necessary experience.

It will not however change the high scoring. That went out the window when Reps. started warning judges about being sent to retraining for scoring lower.

 

[bbq.tom]

Then let's just make all previous CBJ's status null and void until they get retrained.

Therefore, there is a need to discontinue KCBS contests until there are enough "retrained" or "newly certified" judges to be able to provide knowledgeable and consistent judges for each contest.

Somehow this just doesn't pass the sanity check either...