I Warm Brine Chicken... Call the Authorities

[BillN]

Very interesting. Thank you Bill. That's a lower temp that I've seen used around here. Makes me want to try this on my Egg. I usually roll at 325, then open it up to crisp.

I've been brining a bird all day on the counter, as I've described earlier. With it, I'm doing a fresh Blueberry / balsamic vinegar / fresh rosemary / maple syrup chicken tonite. Spatchcocked 450+ in the egg until crispy and bronze, then brought inside, cut into pieces, added to the above sauce in then into a shallow cooking dish right under the broiler for maybe 10 more minutes.

It's a take-off of Rao's Chicken in Harlem. Same technique, different acidic sauce

This is just a guess but my LSG moves so much air it seems to cook faster than I thought it would based on the temp gauge. Once it gets to temp there is no smoke coming out the exhaust just invisible heat, have only used a mix of pecan and mesquite. Here is a pic of exhaust running around 285.

 

[TedW]

Good lookin' Bill!

 

[Meathead]

Some thoughts: Salmonella can duplicate everey 20 minutes. The risk increases with the initial load (how many bugs are there to start with). Brines and refrigeration INHIBIT bacterial growth. Heavy salt concentration can kill, but I don't think 10% can kill all. Remember, we make pickles by fermenting in a brine so some microbes can live in saline. Yes, MOST bacteria are on the surface, but if the surface is cut or breached they can get inside. Pork chops or steaks don't have the little nooks and crannies that chicken has. The little buggers can hide undere the wings, under the skin, in the spaces under the pleura (rib membrane), etc. And part of the chicken processing involves dunking it in a bath that is often contaminated. Cooking to 165 for 7 seconds SHOULD kill all the bad guys, but if you don't cook that high or miss a spot you could be asking for trouble. Yes, salt moves faster when the meat is warm, and in fact it moves faster DURING the cooking process so it will penetrate deep then. Dr. Greg Blonder describes this phenomenon here vhttp://amazingribs.com/recipes/rubs_pastes_marinades_and_brines/zen_of_brines.html Another issue is cross contamination. By multiplying the bacterial count you are increasing the risk for splashes or other things to contaminate an apple or countertop. The taste of the results may be good, but I wonder if they are that much better than if you used safer methods. You should do a controlled side by side blind tasting with someone else doing the processing and cooking and several people tasting.

Meathead, AmazingRibs.com

 

[Meathead]

One more thought: I have never been in a fatal car accident, but every year 30,000 people are. Just because I am still alive doesn't mean driving is safe.

 

[Meathead]

Another point: You say "So aside from a pre-programmed "ick" factor, scientifically the chicken is sterile." Sterile means there is no chance of anything living within. Pasteurized means the microbial load is so low as to be safe. When we cook food we pasteurize, not sterilize. Also, some bugs, like botulinum, can form protective spores when conditions are inhospitable, and come out of the pore state when things are happier.

 

[SirPorkaLot]

Yea..I'll pass.
To each their own.

(i was kinda following until ya quoted meathead..then ya lost me)

I brine in a 5 gallon bucket in the beer fridge. Works well for me.

 

[roncoinc]

Another point: You say "So aside from a pre-programmed "ick" factor, scientifically the chicken is sterile." Sterile means there is no chance of anything living within. Pasteurized means the microbial load is so low as to be safe. When we cook food we pasteurize, not sterilize. Also, some bugs, like botulinum, can form protective spores when conditions are inhospitable, and come out of the pore state when things are happier.

Thanks for your input.

safe food handling is paramount.

 

[TedW]

You should check the microbial mortality at 10% saline over short time. Kills mucho. The fridge? Kills nada. Does anyone here think that this room temp 10% salt brine might actually allow much propagation? 'cause it won't. Anything that survives did so because of great saline affinity, which aren't a concern.

I'm also not swayed at all by the deep fissure theory.

Much more than this is just fearful thinking. The statistical reality of pathogens is quite statistically insignificant for all the reasons already mentioned.

 

[roncoinc]

Sources: chemistry.about.com cdc.gov

" Bacteria require a water-rich environment to survive. Salt dehydrates cells, which can prevent them from reproducing and can even kill them. A concentration of 20 percent salt is usually sufficient to kill bacteria. Staphylococcus is one exception to this rule, however. High enough concentrations of salt still kill it, but it can survive at much higher concentrations than other strains of bacteria. Some other types of bacteria, including cyanobacteria, are also unusually tolerant of salt."

I aint taking chances,cold brine it is !

 

[TedW]

staphylococcus lives on your skin right now. If you're healthy.

These and tens of thousands of other types of microbes live in and on you. About 4 pounds of microbes live in you and on you, on average. There are ten times more microbial cells than human cells associated with you. Microbes are literally in every breath you take.

And one more time... Does anyone believe that anything would grow faster in a salt brine than in your fridge? Anyone?

Remember, we leave un-brined chicken in a bag in the fridge and as long as it doesn't smell, it's cooked. No brine on that bird all week in the fridge. Where's the fear and indignation over this activity?

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

I'll try to stay neutral in this, but I do think the frig is a "safe zone" in which bacteria doesn't grow at a fast rate.

Personally, if I was gonna brine like you stated, I sure in the hell would want a cure in the brine. That's just me, you can play with your food however you like!

 

[Meathead]

Yea..I'll pass.
To each their own.

(i was kinda following until ya quoted meathead..then ya lost me)

I brine in a 5 gallon bucket in the beer fridge. Works well for me.

Sorry for the confusion. Ribmeister is Meathead. I was unable to get the name Meathead when I joined many years ago. Sorry if I confused you with the tech stuff. I was typing fast. Bottom line: It's risky.

 

[TedW]

I would agree the cold slows microbial growth. I'm asserting there's less microbial growth in a 10% saline solution at room temp. I'm still waiting for some proof or riskiness.

How would you cure in the brine?

 

[Meathead]

I'll try to stay neutral in this, but I do think the frig is a "safe zone" in which bacteria doesn't grow at a fast rate.

Personally, if I was gonna brine like you stated, I sure in the hell would want a cure in the brine. That's just me, you can play with your food however you like!

The fridge is safe if it is cold enough. Shoot for 33-38. Let it get up above 40 and it is MUCH less safe. Have you checked your fridge temp lately? Have you seen food get scummy in the fridge even though it is under 40?

The Prague Powder used in curing is mostly aimed at bot. I don't think it does much to salmonella, campylobacter, or e-coli strains, the most common pathogens.

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

I would agree the cold slows microbial growth. I'm asserting there's less microbial growth in a 10% saline solution at room temp. I'm still waiting for some proof or riskiness.

How would you cure in the brine?

http://www.mortonsalt.com/home-product/morton-tender-quick/

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

The fridge is safe if it is cold enough. Shoot for 33-38. Let it get up above 40 and it is MUCH less safe. Have you checked your fridge temp lately? Have you seen food get scummy in the fridge even though it is under 40?

The Prague Powder used in curing is mostly aimed at bot. I don't think it does much to salmonella, campylobacter, or e-coli strains, the most common pathogens.

Yes, my brining/aging frig is 35* and has no defrost cycle.

 

[TedW]

Burnt, you dry age in that fridge?

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

Burnt, you dry age in that fridge?

No it doesn't have humidity control well enough. I just use it for wet aging and storage if needed. It will take a brisket almost two weeks to thaw in it.

 

[Meathead]

Trying to find the answer of what concentration of salt is needed to kill salmonella (the most common chicken contaminant), but I have learned that it actually likes salt. I am also reminded that bacteria live in sea water (about 3-5%), and in some very salty bodies like the Great Salt Lake. Also, cheeses are made with bacteria and salts.

 

[Springram]

And there's the rub... get it... rub??? sorry

Anyway, this is much like the days when we finally learned that no one was getting sick from eating pink pork anymore. Most people still think pink pork = infectious.

Most people are still microbe-phobic

You do have a point.