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TooSaucedToPork

is one Smokin' Farker
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Location
Buffalo NY
I saw a bunch of comments lately on what exactly the judges are instructed to do...so I went back and read the latest CBJ Manual. This is what judges are told, everything else, besides updates in the rep book, is personal preferences.




HELPFUL GUIDELINES JUDGING THE FOUR BASIC CONTEST CATEGORIES

CHICKEN:
Chicken may be presented with or without the skin. It may also be presented with a combination of dark and white meat or all one or the other. The type presented should not in any way affect the way it is scored. Properly smoked chicken will be moist and have a nice texture and any juice present should be clear. Smoked chicken has a tendency to produce a red coloring around the bone areas, especially in the thigh and leg meat. To some it gives the impression that is was undercooked. Always check the juices and if they are clear you will find the chicken is properly cooked. There may be, at times, a pink appearance to the breast meat if it has been smoked for some time. However, we do not judge chicken on its color as some cooks prepare their chicken in such a way the breast meat will remain white.

PORK RIBS:
Everyone has his or her own idea of what a good rib should be. However, when judging competition ribs you must take a few factors consideration other than what we may feel is our favorite rib. We first must determine how well it was cooked. When eating a properly cooked rib, the meat should come off the bone with very little effort and only where you bit into it should the meat be removed. If the meat falls off the entire bone while biting, it is a good indication it is overcooked. When overcooked, the meat has a tendency to be mushy with little or no texture. Usually when you take a bite out of a well-smoked rib that is properly cooked, the exposed bone will have a tendency to dry almost at once. A good example of this is to look at a steak bone that has been cooked medium to one that has been cooked well done. Ribs should be moist, have a good flavor and can be presented with or without sauce. They may be turned in with double bones, single bones, heavy meat on both sides of a single bone and in some cases a touch of loin meat attached to the rib bone. The latter may apply to a custom cut rib. In no way should it appear as a pork chop. Any question should be directed to the Contest Official.

PORK SHOULDER:
Pork shoulder or Boston butt should be very tender with a definite texture to the meat. It is easily overcooked to get it tender and the judge should make certain in his or her mind that it is not mushy. Mushy meat dissolves in your mouth with very little effort when chewing it. A sliced piece of this meat should pull apart with very little effort, be moist; and when eaten, have a good texture. You will also see this meat turned in as a pulled or chopped pork entry. Here again check for it being properly cooked and not overcooked. It is quite easy to hide the fact that it is overcooked when presented as a pulled entry. Many cooks will include the "bark" (crusty outside surface) of the product that is formed while being smoked and is very tasty.

BRISKET:
This is perhaps the toughest piece of meat the contest cook will be cooking and have a few factors in judging brisket must be considered. Brisket, when sliced, will have a tendency to dry and lose its moisture quite rapidly. A well-experienced contest cook can take precautions concerning this fact. The judge must evaluate this as well as how it was cooked concerning its tenderness. A good way to determine tenderness is to pick up the piece of brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. It should break apart with little effort and maintain a good texture. If it is overcooked, it will fall apart when it is picked up. Some will present the brisket in very large slices in order to keep it from falling apart (if overcooked); or , it may be presented in very thin slices (if undercooked). However, always judge the brisket for the way it is cooked, not by the thickness of the slice. Keep these factors in mind and take your time in judging this cut of meat. Although smoke ring add to the presentation of brisket, we do not take it into consideration, as some cooks chemically enhance the smoke ring in order to give a better presentation score. The latter has been explained in class.
 
Is this the full text of the current mp3 played for the judges before each contest? Or does that recording that the judges listen to address the current scoring system as well?

I have to admit that it's been years since I listened to the recording after a cooks' meeting (in fact, it was back when we were still calling it a CD). In the cooks' meeting, often the rep will simply say that anyone who wants to listen can stay, and everyone else can go. Is this the usual practice in the judges' meeting as well, or is it a mandatory listen?
 
Yes, listening is always mandatory, and it covers scoring, meats, and other topics. You can listen to it by going to KCBS, logging in, and going to downloads. Look for "2014 CBJ Instructions (mp3)".
 
Around here in SoCal its MANDATORY listen.

Yes, listening is always mandatory, and it covers scoring, meats, and other topics. You can listen to it by going to KCBS, logging in, and going to downloads. Look for "2014 CBJ Instructions (mp3)".

Thank you, that it very helpful to know.
Because when we hear of judging anomalies, it makes it clear that it isn't a case of maybe the judge just hadn't reviewed the manual, or other inconsistencies had accrued over time -- each contest has a presentation of the material in its current form, and that judge sat and listened to it.
 
This is from the KCBS judges manual. Every judge that goes thru training gets one. Every cook and judge should log in and read it every year to review changes. It is a 24 page book that outlines the entire judging process. It is available in the download section of the KCBS website. Also mp3s of the judges instructions, cooks instructions, and a whole mess of other helpful info is there as well.

People keep arguing that KCBS doesn't give judges guidelines to go by, well there they are in black and white. If a judge ain't judging by that, then they are an outlier, if a cook doesn't cook to the specifications above, you can't blame the judges.
 
CHICKEN:
Properly smoked chicken will be moist and have a nice texture *What defines a nice texture?*

PORK RIBS:
Everyone has his or her own idea of what a good rib should be. *Yup, like all other BBQ* the meat should come off the bone with very little effort and only where you bit into it should the meat be removed. * yes, but this can still be accomplished with a slightly undercooked/tightened up rib, but does not meet the typical criteria of perfect tenderness when this happens. I still put a lot of emphasis on mouth feel*

PORK SHOULDER:
No comment

BRISKET:
No comment
 
They give a couple of guidelines but mostly on how it should appear and feel. But they don't talk about taste at all. There is no guideline on taste, balance, heat etc.... Taste is briefly mentioned one time and that is under ribs and it's barely mentioned. I still think there is a ton of grey area when taste is concerned.
 
Hey yall,

There were posts that said KCBS doesn't define or have any definitions for the categories. I'm just trying to help. There is official KCBS info out there, you just got to dig and find it.

Podge, I agree brother, that's why I put the rest is personal preferences

Unfortunately, taste is a personal preference.
 
This past weekend us judge's were provided with additional verbal instructions which show that KCBS (or at least our wonderful reps) want us to continually improve.

A clarification was made that "6" isn't to be assigned for average competition bbq, but rather, for average bbq as compared against our lifetime experience eating bbq anywhere. Further, a discussion took place about comment cards. We were strongly recommended to utilize the comment cards to help the cooks understand why we might be scoring in a certain manner, and stated that we have an obligation to share any knowledge we might have to assist them in improving their results.

Lastly, the CBBQA (California BBQ Association) and Donna Fong (Butcher's daughter and Harry Soo's fiance) are working to develop an advanced judging class which should assist judge's with the continuing education that we all feel to be beneficial.

Things might not be perfect in CA, but at least we are moving in the right direction... when it comes to BBQ at least
 
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Lastly, the CBBQA (California BBQ Association) and Donna Fong (Butcher's daughter and Harry Soo's fiance) are working to develop an advanced judging class which should assist judge's with the continuing education that we all feel to be beneficial.

Has there been any discussion with KCBS about this? If every regional group does something similar, but they all teach something a little different I don't know that it would be beneficial.
 
I agree totally, but this is a huge flaw with the judging because there are no guidelines or standards for it leaves a huge disparity in what each cook is supposed to make their bbq taste like.

I agree it sucks. But you have to look at the flip side. Right now the best average tasting bbq in the world wins. You cook in competition to appeal to the greatest amount of people. If KCBS where to set a standard for taste besides what they already do, it leaves no room for experimentation or improvement.

Bbq SHOULD look a certain way - like you wanna snatch it up and eat it
Bbq SHOULD have a certain texture
Bbq can have hundreds of different tastes. Regional, country, county, and city tastes. Now

The only way to do this would be to define Kansas City BBQ and that is how you cook. It is the KCBS, so maybe everyone could be limited to cooking KC style only.

KCBS can't be pretentious and "define" what bbq SHOULD taste like.
 
you know, I have never cooked in KCBS but I would think, and from the shows I watch, KCBS is so national with their comps that the judges mostly come from that area. So if you are in Tenn you present the way they are used to seeing it and tasting it. Carolinas, like me, sweet heat in everything but Brisket. that to me is the challenge of doing KCBS. Adapting to different regions. I only do SCBA so we can stick to the same profile mostly. You can see from trying others at an event what is trending for that season. Vinegar taste or not, etc. Change if you feel it's winning or hope yours will prevail. Some judges do get tired of the same old tastes so when discussed afterwards it starts the change in judging and scores. Of course, as a cooker myself....it is my opnion!
 
I agree it sucks. But you have to look at the flip side. Right now the best average tasting bbq in the world wins. You cook in competition to appeal to the greatest amount of people. If KCBS where to set a standard for taste besides what they already do, it leaves no room for experimentation or improvement.

Bbq SHOULD look a certain way - like you wanna snatch it up and eat it
Bbq SHOULD have a certain texture
Bbq can have hundreds of different tastes. Regional, country, county, and city tastes. Now

The only way to do this would be to define Kansas City BBQ and that is how you cook. It is the KCBS, so maybe everyone could be limited to cooking KC style only.

KCBS can't be pretentious and "define" what bbq SHOULD taste like.

I agree with all if that. But I think if they just did a little it would help. In my opinion it should say something about balanced flavors, heat, and spices. I have just heard judges say they didn't like some bbq because it was sweeter than they liked or hotter than they liked. That's all personal opinion and no balance.
 
I agree it sucks. But you have to look at the flip side. Right now the best average tasting bbq in the world wins. You cook in competition to appeal to the greatest amount of people. If KCBS where to set a standard for taste besides what they already do, it leaves no room for experimentation or improvement.

Bbq SHOULD look a certain way - like you wanna snatch it up and eat it
Bbq SHOULD have a certain texture
Bbq can have hundreds of different tastes. Regional, country, county, and city tastes. Now

The only way to do this would be to define Kansas City BBQ and that is how you cook. It is the KCBS, so maybe everyone could be limited to cooking KC style only.

KCBS can't be pretentious and "define" what bbq SHOULD taste like.

Why shouldnt KCBS be defining what bbq should taste, feel and look like?
 
When I went through my judging class taste was presented this way - flavors should be well balanced and complement - not overwhelm - the meat. We talked a bit about how we should NOT judge down based on personal preference. I thought it was a pretty clear instruction for something so subjective.

However, having judged for five years now, I still sometimes hear people knock down samples based on personal preference. It is rare, but it does happen. I can only say that I wasn't taught to judge that way, I find it undermines what we're trying to do and I usually bring comments like that to the attention of our reps.

One way KCBS mitigates crazy judging is with weighted scoring. It isn't the best, but it does help.

I'll add that, in my experience, complex flavor profiles always do better than those with a simple overwhelming note, and those simple notes almost always do poorly because they tend to stand out so much more and can easily overwhelm the meat.
 
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