Judge classes suspended?

Funtimebbq said:
Are you referring to the contest in Lake Havasu? At that contest, it was made quite clear during the question/answer period in the judges meeting that once a score is written down it cannot be changed except in the case of a DQ and only at the instructions of a KCBS Rep. The reps that day were the Macintosh's and the Whitebooks. Were any of those 4 involved in the alleged incident?
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Yes & yes
 
Thanks Dave.
Would be interesting to see the rules throughout the years in order to better understand the whys and wherefores. Like the pooled sauce rule. Once one understands the history behind the rule, it makes perfect sense. Although, still not sure of the true reason for outlawing the 'dipping' sauce... was it due to a uniformity issue or what... ;)
 
Bob in Corona said:
Thanks Dave.
Would be interesting to see the rules throughout the years in order to better understand the whys and wherefores. Like the pooled sauce rule. Once one understands the history behind the rule, it makes perfect sense. Although, still not sure of the true reason for outlawing the 'dipping' sauce... was it due to a uniformity issue or what... ;)
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I got an education when the parting portion of the pork rule became popular a few years ago. I had several cooks tell me that way back when it had become popular for cooks to essentially grill country ribs by cutting them out of a butt. I had other cooks tell me that there had been issues with pork tenderloin being slipped in to pass for $ muscle. I was told that both factors influenced the minimum weight and parting rules for pork.

That predated my joining KCBS, but made a lot of sense to me. As you suggested, I think it gave me a better understanding of the rule.
 
Jorge,

Great information ! Thank You !

Knowing that rule's background does indeed help. Going forward, such information could benefit cooks, judges and reps whenever this rule is challenged.

Bob
 
5string said:
After judging today, I'm more confused than ever. I actually witnessed a table captain AND rep try to convince a judge to change his score. The judge stood by his score and challenged them both to taste the sample for themselves. His score stood.
what I learned today was that perhaps the retraining should start with the reps. Even the judging instructions differ greatly by region. If everyone is to get back on the same page, it needs to start at the top.
Unless the laws of physics have changed, sh*t still rolls downhill.
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Did this occur at the table you were judging at?
 
kellym said:
Did this occur at the table you were judging at?
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At the next table within earshot. After judging was completed, I verified what I did hear with my wife who was seated at that table next to the offended judge. She has a tendancy to remember details as she is a retired investigator for the department of justice.
I do not believe the matter is over, the judge was livid at having his skill and integrity challenged. As any of us should have been.
 
5string said:
At the next table within earshot. After judging was completed, I verified what I did hear with my wife who was seated at that table next to the offended judge. She has a tendancy to remember details as she is a retired investigator for the department of justice.
I do not believe the matter is over, the judge was livid at having his skill and integrity challenged. As any of us should have been.
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Thanks for the info, now I'm getting a clearer picture. One last question, what category did this occur in?
 
Pappy Q said:
Great move by the new BOD. Very encouraging.
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Well, it lasted for a month anyway. They have decided that the cooks who take the judging class for informational purposes won't have as good an opportunity so therefore, restart the money machine. It left the impression that we need more judges (members & income) so blame it on the cooks and move on.:clap2:
 
Smoke'n Ice said:
Well, it lasted for a month anyway. They have decided that the cooks who take the judging class for informational purposes won't have as good an opportunity so therefore, restart the money machine. It left the impression that we need more judges (members & income) so blame it on the cooks and move on.:clap2:
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So much for the new and improved BOD, very discouraging. At least we got regional representation... oh wait, never mind
 
I don't know how many Kansas City judges frequent this fourm but, last weekend I sat in on a class as my wife became certified, the class asked many questions, but the instructor seemed to avoid many clear answers. The instructor claimed to be the first judge issued a number, this would be judge # 1 so he should be very knowledgeable.
Some asked basic questions about brisket catagory, like what if a entry turned in 6 slices of brisket and only 5 burnt ends.? Answer was "you received 6 slices of brisket and that's the main thing. So someone reversed the question, 6 burnt ends and 5 slices the answer given was to give it a 1 because every judge did not receive a piece. Another person said what if you recieve only burnt ends? Instructor look at person like he was crazy!
I know for a fact that people have turned just burnt ends in and received a great score and was in "the money"
I personally have been a judge since mid 90's and have cooked many comps, I know things have, and will change and adjust, but there needs to be consistent training to be consistent judges. Needless to say the ride home had many comments about how to judge correctly and fairly.
There also seemed to be some bragging about how many judges in the KCBS.
Hopefully it isn't just about numbers and memberships and money!

Sorry just my 2 cents
Woodburner
 
woodburner said:
I don't know how many Kansas City judges frequent this fourm but, last weekend I sat in on a class as my wife became certified, the class asked many questions, but the instructor seemed to avoid many clear answers. The instructor claimed to be the first judge issued a number, this would be judge # 1 so he should be very knowledgeable.
Some asked basic questions about brisket catagory, like what if a entry turned in 6 slices of brisket and only 5 burnt ends.? Answer was "you received 6 slices of brisket and that's the main thing. So someone reversed the question, 6 burnt ends and 5 slices the answer given was to give it a 1 because every judge did not receive a piece. Another person said what if you recieve only burnt ends? Instructor look at person like he was crazy!
I know for a fact that people have turned just burnt ends in and received a great score and was in "the money"
I personally have been a judge since mid 90's and have cooked many comps, I know things have, and will change and adjust, but there needs to be consistent training to be consistent judges. Needless to say the ride home had many comments about how to judge correctly and fairly.
There also seemed to be some bragging about how many judges in the KCBS.
Hopefully it isn't just about numbers and memberships and money!

Sorry just my 2 cents
Woodburner
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Just in case your wife is still confused the rule is this,
​
17) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6) judges

So if a cook wants to turn in 4 slices and 2 burnt ends, the entry is legal, or 1 slice and 5 burnt ends or 6 burnt ends, all is legal. Pretty dam dumb but leagal. Chicken can be 4 breast slices a leg and a wing. You get the idea.

As far as the return of CBJ classes, did you ever have a great idea that everyone seemed to like and then the next day you thought "why did I do that"? You know like marrying that show girl in Vegas, or spending all that money on a yellow Corvette? It happens...
I know the originator of that idea after a couple days and several conversations felt likewise and he completely owns the bad idea.
So it was what it was.
Ed










​

 
ModelMaker said:
Just in case your wife is still confused the rule is this,
17) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions of meat in an approved container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6) judges ​

So if a cook wants to turn in 4 slices and 2 burnt ends, the entry is legal, or 1 slice and 5 burnt ends or 6 burnt ends, all is legal. Pretty dam dumb but leagal. Chicken can be 4 breast slices a leg and a wing. You get the idea.​

As far as the return of CBJ classes, did you ever have a great idea that everyone seemed to like and then the next day you thought "why did I do that"? You know like marrying that show girl in Vegas, or spending all that money on a yellow Corvette? It happens...
I know the originator of that idea after a couple days and several conversations felt likewise and he completely owns the bad idea.
So it was what it was.
Ed​
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​

Actually, if you read the post that woodburner made, it points out that the suspension of judging classes was well in order. If the person giving the class that woodburner referenced was the first judge ever given a number, then he, of all people, should be fully aware of the rule that you quoted. As another poster stated, Judge 1 for retaining class 1.

The suspension was a great idea as witnessed by most of the posts on the subject. The restart was a bad idea until a program is in place to at least retrain the CBJ instructors and get rid of their bias and insure that they know the rules they are instructing to.

I really miss my Silver Vet and the Cobra that I rolled 9 times on the Ilion Gorge Road Race and could only salvage the roll cage and fuel cell, but I don't regret either experience.

Mack
 
ModelMaker said:
Chicken can be 4 breast slices a leg and a wing. You get the idea.
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With my chicken scores perhaps I should go with the KFC six piece meal. I could have the sides for lunch. :-D


Smoke'n Ice said:
Actually, if you read the post that woodburner made, it points out that the suspension of judging classes was well in order. If the person giving the class that woodburner referenced was the first judge ever given a number, then he, of all people, should be fully aware of the rule that you quoted. As another poster stated, Judge 1 for retaining class 1.

The suspension was a great idea as witnessed by most of the posts on the subject. The restart was a bad idea until a program is in place to at least retrain the CBJ instructors and get rid of their bias and insure that they know the rules they are instructing to.

Mack
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One would think a plan would have be in place before imposing the suspension of classes. Very disappointing that it has turned out to be one big "never mind".

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0"]Gilda Radner Nevermind - YouTube[/ame]
 
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Smoke'n Ice said:
[/LEFT]

Actually, if you read the post that woodburner made, it points out that the suspension of judging classes was well in order. If the person giving the class that woodburner referenced was the first judge ever given a number, then he, of all people, should be fully aware of the rule that you quoted. As another poster stated, Judge 1 for retaining class 1.

The suspension was a great idea as witnessed by most of the posts on the subject. The restart was a bad idea until a program is in place to at least retrain the CBJ instructors and get rid of their bias and insure that they know the rules they are instructing to.

I really miss my Silver Vet and the Cobra that I rolled 9 times on the Ilion Gorge Road Race and could only salvage the roll cage and fuel cell, but I don't regret either experience.

Mack
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I don't believe anyone said the basis of the "great idea" could not be readdressed in a different manner down the road a smidge...
Ed
 
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Rookie'48 said:
Sorry Bob, I have nothing in writing on this. I know how we were taught and I've listened to a bunch of the "older" CBJs talk about the "start at nine and go down" process. From what I understand, the "start at nine" was changed because there were too many 180s compared with a few years before - however, I could be wrong on this as it was before I got into competitive BBQ. I hope that this helps.
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Hey Dave,
I don't think I'm "older" than you, but I have been a certified judge since February, 2002. My class at the time was taught by Bob and Debbie Pelt. At that time the process taught was to start at 9 and mark down from there depending on the individual entry. A few years later, the instruction was changed to start at 6 and to go up or down from there depending on the individual entry. The reasoning at the time was stated that every entry was assumed to be "average" until it was judged. A couple of years or so after the start at 6 process, the change to have no starting point at all was implemented. The instruction was to judge and score each entry as presented with no defined starting point. My understanding is that this is how we are supposed to judge currently; no defined starting point and judge each entry as presented. One thing I think quite a few of us have seen is a tendency for scores to be just 7, 8, 9 rather than using the scale from 2 to 9.
 
I truly believe in "score as presented" and the use of the entire 2-9 spectrum of scores.
Now that I've stated that, I must also truly state that I have never had an entry in a standard category at a KCBS contest that was worthy of a score less than 5. Am I a 7,8,9 judge, HEEL NO, but those are much more utilized scores on my card than lower because of the general quality of professional barbecue competition entries.
 
bbq.tom said:
I truly believe in "score as presented" and the use of the entire 2-9 spectrum of scores. . .
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Bob in Corona said:
Although I do use 7 thru 9 often, 6 and an occasional 5 are not unheard of. . .
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My answer is the same as Tom & Bob's. Today in Miami, Oklahoma I gave a few 9-9-9s, a couple of 6s and a 5 - the rest were in the 7-8-9 range. BTW, if I give you a 6 or lower you can count on a comment card!
 
Smoke'n Ice said:
Well, it lasted for a month anyway. They have decided that the cooks who take the judging class for informational purposes won't have as good an opportunity so therefore, restart the money machine. It left the impression that we need more judges (members & income) so blame it on the cooks and move on.:clap2:
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How so? The motion that passed was the exact same motion that was passed in February.
 
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