Contest Results Sams club Medford, Ny

[BasicPatrick]

Chris you are making my point....

I could acheive many shapes including a basic square using a mold or a putty knife or a slicing knife or a ruler or many other tools. The tool used can't be the point where the rule is violated, that would not be enforceable nor realistic.

Even if the shape was done with a pan (the pitmaster says it was a spatula) then are you stating that to mold aka sculpt aka manipulate the shape of a chicken thigh with a pan is legal but to mold or sculpt pork post cooking is illegal? If this is what you are stating then are you making the case that the fact it is done after cooking violates the rule?

If that is the case then as I stated earlier; most of us manipulate shape aka sculpt aka mold all meats post cook as in trimming the brisket slice, burnt end, money muscle, horn muscle, slicing ribs to length and thickness etc etc etc.

My point and overall question remains....IS there any direction/experience/language instructing cooks on the point where clearly allowed manipulation of the shape of the meat becomes a violation of the rule? There must be some language somewhere? No?

I get that this a bit like the age old old debate about how to define pornography...I know it when I see it but its hard to define in writing.....>)

 

[BBQ_MAFIA]

YUP...... We got pulled over too.
I'm OK with it and feel safer knowing that they are on the job.

Stop by and say hello if you see us at another comp. We will be sure to do the same.

Now back to the Pork Box.........

And as if all this wasn't enough we got pulled over at the entrance to the Queen's Midtown Tunnel and asked to open our van. The let us go pretty quickly but the cops did tell me I was the second team they had stopped coming from Medford, I'm thinking BBQ Mafia but I could be wrong.

 

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

I took the KCBS judging class in 2009 and the rep in charged said he liked when a team uses an ice cream scoop to for their pulled pork for a nice appearance. Is this really any different? I the ice cream scoop is a mold, right?

 

[boogiesnap]

The rule, as written, says no sculpting, and it was clearly sculpted. After thinking about it more, I agree Mike made the right call.

I think people generally interpret the rule to mean "you can't do anything in the box that could identify the team", and a square isn't unique enough to do that. People are questioning that, but that isn't what the rule actually says.

Patrick, I think it's like the legal system. When the law has gaps, the courts clarify the law. Common practices and rep advisories provide the clarity. Most of the instances you cite are commonly used. Muffin pan chicken is not going to DQ you, and neither is carefully placed meat. I bet you couldn't make that shape with your ruler and your tweezers...not in the time you have anyway. It was done with a box mold.

the rule doers NOT say no sculpting. it reads no SCULPTURING....to make it IDENTIFIABLE. i don't think a square pile is identifiable.

and sled, no, i don't turn in cat food. sorry blackeye. :redface:

even in my KCBS judging class 3 perfect ice cream scoop portions were presented in a box, and not as an example of a DQ.

mike had his reasons, i'm sure, but as the rule is written(there is very little "interpretation" on this one)what were they?

 

[CBQ]

the rule doers NOT say no sculpting. it reads no SCULPTURING....to make it identifiable. i don't think a square pile is identifiable

I am not sure how sculpting and sculpturing are any different. It's forming meat. It's identifiable if it's so unique nobody else is doing it.

Even if the shape was done with a pan (the pitmaster says it was a spatula) then are you stating that to mold aka sculpt aka manipulate the shape of a chicken thigh with a pan is legal but to mold or sculpt pork post cooking is illegal?

The rule says:

Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable.​

I thought it was a box mold. I guess blackeyedpig is just damn good with a spatula.

I guess the rep thought it was too unique. I know it's a square, but you don't see many pork turn ins like that. Lots of people turn in round muffin shaped chicken.

It's a judgement call, and therefore subjective. If every team was turning in pork squares, it would be an accepted standard. A neat well organized box will not get you DQ'd, but something that is truly different will. Everyone is looking for an edge, but taste and tenderness rule. If you do someone too far out of the box (or in this case make a box :becky it won't work because it's easy for judges to be on the lookout for a specific box.

 

[scm1226]

Lots of people turn in round muffin shaped chicken. QUOTE]
Then the first person to do muffin chicken was DQ'd??
Bad box yes, identifiable? No. The team wanted a uniform turn in. I would be pissed to get a DQ from that. Our first couple of contests when we did only pulled in the box we used small bowls to make six matching piles in our box. Should that have been a DQ?
Obviously we have learned from our limited experience.
Live and learn I guess but still question identifiable part of the sculpting.

 

[boogiesnap]

I am not sure how sculpting and sculpturing are any different. It's forming meat. It's identifiable if it's so unique nobody else is doing it.



The rule says:

Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a
way to make it identifiable.​

I thought it was a box mold. I guess blackeyedpig is just damn good with a spatula.

I guess the rep thought it was too unique. I know it's a square, but you don't see many pork turn ins like that. Lots of people turn in round muffin shaped chicken.

It's a judgement call, and therefore subjective. If every team was turning in pork squares, it would be an accepted standard. A neat well organized box will not get you DQ'd, but something that is truly different will. Everyone is looking for an edge, but taste and tenderness rule. If you do someone too far out of the box (or in this case make a box :becky it won't work because it's easy for judges to be on the lookout for a specific box.

the difference is all boxes are sculpted:

sculpt (sklpt)
v. sculpt·ed, sculpt·ing, sculpts
v.tr.
1. To sculpture (an object).
2. To shape, mold, or fashion especially with artistry or precision:

to continue on and sculpture the meat in a way that it is identifiable is another matter.

i still do not see how a pile of pork is identifiable to this team at this contest.

 

[CBQ]

i still do not see how a pile of pork is identifiable to this team at this contest.

If you knew a judge in the contest, and said "hey, we are going to turn in a big pork square, be on the lookout for it", it is pretty easy to pick out.

To Patrick's point..if you said "hey we are going to turn in a really precise brisket box with all the slices being the same size", I think judges wouldn't be able to pick that out, at least they couldn't be 100% sure whose box it was.

 

[MikeR]

I think if you knew a judge you could make it easy enough for them to identify a box. Parsley vs. lettuce/ burnt ends on top/bottom/down the side. Just a couple of examples, where there's a will there's a way. Now how do I make sure the box lands on his table?:wink:

 

[boogiesnap]

If you knew a judge in the contest, and said "hey, we are going to turn in a big pork square, be on the lookout for it", it is pretty easy to pick out.

To Patrick's point..if you said "hey we are going to turn in a really precise brisket box with all the slices being the same size", I think judges wouldn't be able to pick that out, at least they couldn't be 100% sure whose box it was.

i'll concede this as true, but still.

 

[timzcardz]

If you knew a judge in the contest, and said "hey, we are going to turn in a big pork square, be on the lookout for it", it is pretty easy to pick out.

In two contests now, for brisket I've turned in only burnt ends with green leaf lettuce garnish.

How often does that happen?

Should I have been DQ'd for it?



The bigger concern to me, is that apparently (based on comments from the judges at the table) the same person/rep that subjectively passed judgeement on the box to DQ it, then misapplied the most objective and unambiquous aspect of the rule and had it judged for taste and tenderness. Taking individuals out of it, and looking at it objectively, should the judgement of the person be trusted if they can't follow the most specific part of the rule?

 

[Muzzlebrake]

This is definately an interesting topic. Just to be clear and not being a smart ash the rules referenced for this DQ are;

2013 Rules and Regulations paragraph number nine;

"9) Meat shall not be sculptured, branded or presented in a way to make it identifiable. Rosettes of meat slices are not allowed. Violations of this rule will be scored a one (1) on all criteria by all six judges."

JUDGING PROCEDURES, paragraph number five

"5) A score of one (1) is a disqualification and requires approval by a Contest Rep. Grounds for disqualification: All judges will give a one (1) in Appearance for unapproved garnish, pooled sauce or less than 6 samples of meat. All judges will give a one (1) in all criteria for sculptured meat, a marked turn-in container, foreign object in the container, incorrect meat. All judges not receiving a sample will give a one (1) in all criteria."

Have I missed any other reference?

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

Sled I am challenging Mike Lake, I think it was a pathetic DQ, it was not identifiable to any certain team. You have seen my pork presentations, they are more identifiable than that. That is a sorry ass DQ, that is why I steered away from the sams club events. Congrats to all the teams who advanced, but a real shame a team got DQ'd for a square pork box, I guess round is the only shape.

 

[Jacked UP BBQ]

So how does muffin pan chicken not get DQ'd?

 

[ShencoSmoke]

What about leg quarters, is that in the grey area of "identifiable"? I'm guessing a small percentage of teams compete with them so by nature they are identifiable because they are not common. Even more so if they are all right or left legs quarters.

 

[Sledneck]

Sled I am challenging Mike Lake, I think it was a pathetic DQ, it was not identifiable to any certain team. You have seen my pork presentations, they are more identifiable than that. That is a sorry ass DQ, that is why I steered away from the sams club events. Congrats to all the teams who advanced, but a real shame a team got DQ'd for a square pork box, I guess round is the only shape.

all the sudden since the 180
on Saturday you want to protect your 6 round piles o finely chopped pork pfffft

 

[boogiesnap]

i psh your pffft.

 

[North Is Up]

From the 2013 KCBS Contest Rep Advisory:

2.06 Sculpting Meat & Marking Containers
Question: Why do the rules prohibit sculpting the meat and marking the container, and how do I deal with it?
Opinion: The KCBS utilizes a blind judging system to help prevent collusion by a team and judges. The rule is to prevent cooks from making an entry so unique that a judge could easily recognize an entry from certain identifying characteristics. Webster definition of sculpture is “(a) to form an image or representation of from solid material; (b) to carve or otherwise form into a three dimensional “work of art.”
The key words here are UNIQUE and FORM. Simply to arrange the meat in a container doesn’t violate any rule. To arrange the meat in a unique pattern or to form (carve) the meat into a pattern would be a violation of the rule. Entries not complying with the rule will be given a “1” for APPEARANCE, a “1” for TASTE, and a “1” for TENDERNESS/TEXTURE.
This rule calls for a subjective opinion on the part of the KCBS Rep. Any doubt about this rule should be in the favor of the cook. Rule “1” gives the KCBS Rep broad authority to interpret the rules while at any contest. February 17, 2006

2.07 Molding of Pork Entries
Question: For sanitary purposes, cooks are allowed to use an ice cream scoop for their pork presentation. Can they use a plastic cup as the utensil to form their entry for turn in?
Opinion: Yes. This is not considered marking.
Approved by KCBS Board of Directors, May 12, 2009

Then, of course, there's the, "I know it when I see it" rule.

 

[BasicPatrick]

Wow...that rep advisory makes i even more grey for me. I definately carve three dimentions of a chicken thigh, pork butt & brisket slices. I only carve 2 dimentions of ribs.

Do most of us at least agree that the DQ was not executed correctly as the taste and tenderness were scored and should not have been.

 

[Hawg Father of Seoul]

Sorry if I am wrong, but IF he DQ'd it, isn't he wrong for not having them mark 1's in every category? This is an honest question.

Sorry this is the same question as above me. Still want it answered.

Not to mention that it is no different than 6 scoops of pulled.