First Brisket. [Where did I screw up (or did I)?

[Shawn C]

Lots of great info here. Low and slow is how I love to cook the meat but I am about to start on a Brisket also. I have seen only one comment on the different forums of a higher temp. it does not seem right. thoughts?

 

[el luchador]

Now the second part of your claim, you are even father off base, moist meat is due to collagen turned to gelatin thru denaturization. Moisture loss has nothing to do with that, or at least cooking briskets have lead me to believe that.


rant over......:mrgreen:

collagen contains moisture does it not?

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

collagen contains moisture does it not?

It doesn't have the water moisture that is causing sweating/evaporation. That is why they are wrapping to hurry the cook up through the stall.

You can smoke brisket in 2.5 hrs or 25 hrs and still get moist brisket.

 

[el luchador]

It doesn't have the water moisture that is causing sweating/evaporation. That is why they are wrapping to hurry the cook up through the stall.

You can smoke brisket in 2.5 hrs or 25 hrs and still get moist brisket.

ok sure

 

[PhilB]

Also, I think I read that you separated the flat from the point? I never do that til it's done...separate, wrap the flat and hold and cube the point for burnt ends...

Yeah, it made sense at the time when I got the tip. You end up pulling each part when it's done, and you can also butterfly the point for even cooking. Seems like some people do, and some people don't.

I also have never fried the cubed point. Not sure I've ever met anyone that did that...won't knock it til Ive tried it though...

That one was a tip from Meathead's site. Not legal in competition, of course. But the burnt ends were delicious right off the smoker, but damn amazing after being crisped up in a bit of bacon fat!

 

[PhilB]

that is not unanimous sorry. I dont think you overcooked it - you dried it out by letting the meat cook too long in the stall. a lean piece of meat that is not increasing in temp to allow the collagen to break down, but is rapidly losing moisture, is going to be a dry piece of meat.

Am I to infer then, by logical conclusion, that your premise is that any brisket or pork butt (or other large piece of meat that has a stall) cooked low and slow without wrapping will be dry?

 

[BigKing]

Am I to infer then, by logical conclusion, that your premise is that any brisket or pork butt (or other large piece of meat that has a stall) cooked low and slow without wrapping will be dry?

I think he means a brisket flat in particular is more susceptible to drying out. Pork butt, for example, is much fattier than a flat: especially when trimming the flat fat down.



You can go no wrap and be fine but I imagine it would have to be legit low and slow without temp ramp ups during the cook. He is saying that the flat, by itself, took too much heat for too long before being wrapped. I'm not an expert so I will neither confirm nor deny this claim, but it makes some sense from my experience and non-expert point of view.

 

[el luchador]

Am I to infer then, by logical conclusion, that your premise is that any brisket or pork butt (or other large piece of meat that has a stall) cooked low and slow without wrapping will be dry?

No. You can cook most meats just fine low and slow without wrapping(though I now wrap all except sausage and chicken)

But brisket flat is especially lean and dries out quickly because it has very little collagen.

 

[OklaDustDevil]

there is a reason most good pitmasters and all top competitors wrap.

I disagree with the first part, that most good pitmasters wrap. Back in the day, it was the exact opposite, which is why it was called the Texas CRUTCH. You wrapped a brisket if you screwed up and needed to either 1- speed it up, or 2- try to save it. In my experience, pitmasters who really knew how to handle their pit prided themselves on being able to smoke a great brisket without wrapping.

IMHO competitions, particularly those on tv, are the cause of the current wrapping craze. Early on, competitors wrapped due to time pressure and, as you point out, to minimize risk when $ was on the line. Over time, that set the flavour profile and texture that judges now expect. In turn, competition methods now drive technique because folks copy what they see without understanding the reasons why things evolved that way.

Personally, I think it’s great for cooking techniques to evolve so folks can use whatever methods will achieve the results they prefer. If you or others prefer the texture and flavour that wrapping delivers, that’s great. But I reject the notion that wrapping is necessary, better, or what “real” pitmasters do. I really prefer the firmer bark, texture, and flavour of unwrapped brisket, so that’s what I do. I also don’t need to wrap because I’m not cooking for judges and don’t have to hit their deadlines or flavour profiles.

So, for the OP, I still suggest it would be good to learn to cook brisket au natural and then layer in the various additional techniques to figure out what you like best. But just my pov.

 

[aawa]

So, for the OP, I still suggest it would be good to learn to cook brisket au natural and then layer in the various additional techniques to figure out what you like best. But just my pov.

This is 100% spot on suggestion. When learning to develop your style of bbq once you master how to tell when the bbq is properly cooked. After that then experiment with different techniques to find out what you like best.

When I got into bbq I cooked brisket and butts unwrapped. Once I was able to get the timing and doneness done, I started wrapping in foil. Once I got that, I wrapped in butcher paper. Once I got that, tried it in pans. After a lot of cooks, I settled in on what I liked.

Don't settle on the way someone tells you to cook. Experiment and find out what you like.

 

[PhilB]

So, for the OP, I still suggest it would be good to learn to cook brisket au natural and then layer in the various additional techniques to figure out what you like best. But just my pov.

That's kinda what I was thinking. I don't have to meet a deadline, and, surely, people have been cooking juicy briskets for decades (if not centuries) without wrapping, no?

Since we're on a brisket discussion, does anyone else separate the flat from the point? I'm thinking of doing the next one whole...

 

[PhilB]

Related, here's some cool science by the man who does most of the research for Meathead's site:

https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/thecrutch.html

 

[el luchador]

That's kinda what I was thinking. I don't have to meet a deadline, and, surely, people have been cooking juicy briskets for decades (if not centuries) without wrapping, no?

.

brisket has been cooked for centuries but im guessing it was stewed , boiled or braised brisket .

please let us know how it goes with subsequent flats. only three things can happen, imo

1. you cook them unwrapped and they come out perfect
2. you start braising in wrap like all top competitors and pitmasters
3. you cook unwrapped and become one of the throng who believe that the flat is just for chopping up

:thumb::thumb::thumb:

 

[NYC ‘Que]

I disagree with the first part, that most good pitmasters wrap. Back in the day, it was the exact opposite, which is why it was called the Texas CRUTCH. You wrapped a brisket if you screwed up and needed to either 1- speed it up, or 2- try to save it. In my experience, pitmasters who really knew how to handle their pit prided themselves on being able to smoke a great brisket without wrapping.

IMHO competitions, particularly those on tv, are the cause of the current wrapping craze. Early on, competitors wrapped due to time pressure and, as you point out, to minimize risk when $ was on the line. Over time, that set the flavour profile and texture that judges now expect. In turn, competition methods now drive technique because folks copy what they see without understanding the reasons why things evolved that way.

Personally, I think it’s great for cooking techniques to evolve so folks can use whatever methods will achieve the results they prefer. If you or others prefer the texture and flavour that wrapping delivers, that’s great. But I reject the notion that wrapping is necessary, better, or what “real” pitmasters do. I really prefer the firmer bark, texture, and flavour of unwrapped brisket, so that’s what I do. I also don’t need to wrap because I’m not cooking for judges and don’t have to hit their deadlines or flavour profiles.

So, for the OP, I still suggest it would be good to learn to cook brisket au natural and then layer in the various additional techniques to figure out what you like best. But just my pov.

Bravo!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PhilB]

brisket has been cooked for centuries but im guessing it was stewed , boiled or braised brisket .

It's been getting smoked for a long time now.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq/smoked-brisket-history/

https://www.foodandwine.com/meat-poultry/beef/brief-history-brisket

please let us know how it goes with subsequent flats. only three things can happen, imo

1. you cook them unwrapped and they come out perfect
2. you start braising in wrap like all top competitors and pitmasters
3. you cook unwrapped and become one of the throng who believe that the flat is just for chopping up

Well, 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive. If I cook it unwrapped and it comes out perfect, I may then try wrapping and seeing how I like that!

Option 3 is a no go, and I don't think I've ever run across such a person.

Got this weekend's offering prepped and ready to go on tonight. We'll see what happens! I will make sure not to overcook it this time.

 

[el luchador]

It's been getting smoked for a long time now.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq/smoked-brisket-history/

https://www.foodandwine.com/meat-poultry/beef/brief-history-brisket



Well, 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive. If I cook it unwrapped and it comes out perfect, I may then try wrapping and seeing how I like that!

Option 3 is a no go, and I don't think I've ever run across such a person.

Got this weekend's offering prepped and ready to go on tonight. We'll see what happens! I will make sure not to overcook it this time.

Good luck man
We're all rooting for you. Once you get brisket flat, everything else is easy

 

[PhilB]

Alright folks, here we go.

If you don't want to read, here are some pics!

https://imgur.com/a/6WETflt

This time, I went even more basic. Separated the point and flat first and butterflied the point like last time (cooking two more even pieces of meat just makes more sense to me than a totally uneven one). Rubbed. That's it. No injection, nothing. No foil, no raising temperature, nothing. Just 225 the whole time.

Started probing, and about 12.5 hours in, the point felt totally like butter...as in zero resistance.

Now, consulting with my source leads me to believe that when splitting and butterflying like this, since the point has way more fat to render, by the time the point is done, 99% of the time, the flat is done too. Considering how many gazillion briskets this source has cooked this way, I have no reason to doubt it.

Enter the part where I get paranoid about overcooking it this time! But, from checking the probe, we're only at anywhere from 182-187 or so (point is at 185-187, flat is at 182-185 or so). But, everything says to pull when probe tender...and the point is definitely probe tender.

Pulled it, then debated, consulted my source, who mentioned the possibility that the collagen might not be fully rendered...threw it back on, but it had cooled off by then, so it probably didn't do much for the next half hour but stay warm!

Finally, listened to my gut, and pulled it. Vented a bit, and wrapped in foil and in the cooler in towels for an hour. The point was falling apart, pretty much.

For those who track this sort of thing, it was Certified Angus Beef Brand (keep in mind our producers in Canada follow different grading than in the US), with a producer number of 38.

And, look at that pictures...we have some juice. I think it's still a little under, as my source suspected. Probably should have pulled closer to 190-195...I think at 200, it would have been *way* over. I understand the internal temperature may rise more when foiled or cooking hotter, this was all low and slow, so I wanted to check it early.

To me, it still tasted "dry", but there was definitely juice there, and the bark was fantastic. The burnt ends were amazing. It was definitely way better than last time.

I will definitely inject again next time, I think even if I was a tiny bit under, injecting would have helped. And I may just foil now that I know what I can do unwrapped...or I may just do another one unwrapped and try to get it spot on.

I think injected and covered in a jus like most people do, it would have masked it being a little under...but, once again, I want to get the meat as close to good as possible before doing any extra camouflaging to make sure I at least know somewhat what I'm doing.

Thanks for all the help, and, as usual, I welcome all feedback.

 

[hammb]

I disagree with the first part, that most good pitmasters wrap. Back in the day, it was the exact opposite, which is why it was called the Texas CRUTCH. You wrapped a brisket if you screwed up and needed to either 1- speed it up, or 2- try to save it. In my experience, pitmasters who really knew how to handle their pit prided themselves on being able to smoke a great brisket without wrapping.

IMHO competitions, particularly those on tv, are the cause of the current wrapping craze. Early on, competitors wrapped due to time pressure and, as you point out, to minimize risk when $ was on the line. Over time, that set the flavour profile and texture that judges now expect. In turn, competition methods now drive technique because folks copy what they see without understanding the reasons why things evolved that way.

Personally, I think it’s great for cooking techniques to evolve so folks can use whatever methods will achieve the results they prefer. If you or others prefer the texture and flavour that wrapping delivers, that’s great. But I reject the notion that wrapping is necessary, better, or what “real” pitmasters do. I really prefer the firmer bark, texture, and flavour of unwrapped brisket, so that’s what I do. I also don’t need to wrap because I’m not cooking for judges and don’t have to hit their deadlines or flavour profiles.

So, for the OP, I still suggest it would be good to learn to cook brisket au natural and then layer in the various additional techniques to figure out what you like best. But just my pov.

FWIW to this conversation (perhaps not much), I had the pleasure of meeting Michael Symon and getting a full kitchen tour shortly after the opening of Mabel's (his BBQ restaurant in Cleveland).

I discussed wrapping among other things with him. He told me that he is absolutely old school and they do not wrap any of their meats until they're off the smoker. They do wrap in butcher paper when they put them into the warmers for holding. He is also old school in that he does all his cooking very low. I want to say he does brisket at like 210, even...so lower than low usually is.

Obviously he's more famous as a chef than a BBQ guru, but the man does love BBQ. And I've not yet made it to Texas for any of the famous places out there, but his brisket is by far the best restaurant brisket I've ever had.

Personally, I usually wrap in butcher paper, just thought I'd chime in with one world class chef's opinion on the wrap...

 

[Rockinar]

I could be wrong, but I dont think the Lockhart joints wrap.

 

[Rockinar]

Alright folks, here we go.

If you don't want to read, here are some pics!

https://imgur.com/a/6WETflt

This time, I went even more basic. Separated the point and flat first and butterflied the point like last time (cooking two more even pieces of meat just makes more sense to me than a totally uneven one). Rubbed. That's it. No injection, nothing. No foil, no raising temperature, nothing. Just 225 the whole time.

Started probing, and about 12.5 hours in, the point felt totally like butter...as in zero resistance.

Now, consulting with my source leads me to believe that when splitting and butterflying like this, since the point has way more fat to render, by the time the point is done, 99% of the time, the flat is done too. Considering how many gazillion briskets this source has cooked this way, I have no reason to doubt it.

Enter the part where I get paranoid about overcooking it this time! But, from checking the probe, we're only at anywhere from 182-187 or so (point is at 185-187, flat is at 182-185 or so). But, everything says to pull when probe tender...and the point is definitely probe tender.

Pulled it, then debated, consulted my source, who mentioned the possibility that the collagen might not be fully rendered...threw it back on, but it had cooled off by then, so it probably didn't do much for the next half hour but stay warm!

Finally, listened to my gut, and pulled it. Vented a bit, and wrapped in foil and in the cooler in towels for an hour. The point was falling apart, pretty much.

For those who track this sort of thing, it was Certified Angus Beef Brand (keep in mind our producers in Canada follow different grading than in the US), with a producer number of 38.

And, look at that pictures...we have some juice. I think it's still a little under, as my source suspected. Probably should have pulled closer to 190-195...I think at 200, it would have been *way* over. I understand the internal temperature may rise more when foiled or cooking hotter, this was all low and slow, so I wanted to check it early.

To me, it still tasted "dry", but there was definitely juice there, and the bark was fantastic. The burnt ends were amazing. It was definitely way better than last time.

I will definitely inject again next time, I think even if I was a tiny bit under, injecting would have helped. And I may just foil now that I know what I can do unwrapped...or I may just do another one unwrapped and try to get it spot on.

I think injected and covered in a jus like most people do, it would have masked it being a little under...but, once again, I want to get the meat as close to good as possible before doing any extra camouflaging to make sure I at least know somewhat what I'm doing.

Thanks for all the help, and, as usual, I welcome all feedback.

I would get back to basis. Keep flat/point together. Raise your pit temp to 250-275, pick a single (paper or foil) wrap method, or no wrap and stick with that till you got it. Dont change anything.

If you keep changing everything every cook, you wont know what helped or hurt your next cook. Also keep a journal and take detailed notes each cook of what you did each hour and the end results. Use that as a reference for the next cook.