Comp cooking with gas?

I'm ok with it. If you really want to stick to old school then KCBS needs to do away with draft controlled smokers, pellet smokers and such along with no wagyu meats, premium pork, no injections, etc. If they can't do this then there shouldn't be any issues with allowing gas smokers.



You just named all the reasons I quit doing KCBS events 4 years ago.

It has long stopped being a "BBQ" competition and morphed into an "Outdoor Cooking" competition.

Gas cookers is the obvious next step..
maybe they can eventually ban that nasty wood smoke from the competitions.
 
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I'm ok with it. If you really want to stick to old school then KCBS needs to do away with draft controlled smokers, pellet smokers and such along with no wagyu meats, premium pork, no injections, etc. If they can't do this then there shouldn't be any issues with allowing gas smokers.


This...
 
While I don’t really have much objection to the gas proposal, I think you ought to consider the effect on reaction from Local fire marshals.
While there is a requirement that there be a fire extinguisher nearby, this might force more stringent enforcement of tagging requirements and some of the
crazy rules seen at some contests. Further this could upset the spacing requirements at events as there may be local fire martshal requirements regarding both gas usage at a public event as well as spacing requirements between cookers.
The law of unintended consequences is sure to rear its head
 
While I don’t really have much objection to the gas proposal, I think you ought to consider the effect on reaction from Local fire marshals.
While there is a requirement that there be a fire extinguisher nearby, this might force more stringent enforcement of tagging requirements and some of the
crazy rules seen at some contests. Further this could upset the spacing requirements at events as there may be local fire martshal requirements regarding both gas usage at a public event as well as spacing requirements between cookers.
The law of unintended consequences is sure to rear its head

Just look at how many trailers have propane tanks. I know my trailer has 2 tanks on it. There are a lot of trailers at events that have propane tanks. I have never been questioned about my propane for my trailer. Given how few people would use propane I doubt this would be any different.
 
Just look at how many trailers have propane tanks. I know my trailer has 2 tanks on it. There are a lot of trailers at events that have propane tanks. I have never been questioned about my propane for my trailer. Given how few people would use propane I doubt this would be any different.

Once their use becomes part of the formal cooking process I would bet the tanks would suddenly become both more visible and the subject of concern
 
Once their use becomes part of the formal cooking process I would bet the tanks would suddenly become both more visible and the subject of concern

Besides the tanks on trailer you see all sorts of propane at a typical comp for weed burners, turkey fryers to boil water, smaller tanks for camp stoves, etc. The concern is genuine, but not necessarily new.
 
This went to the BOD yesterday:

There are a lot of arguments and accusations on both sides of the propane issue floating around on Facebook. Here's how it looks to this cook:

Propane goes against all of the traditions and principles that the Kansas City barbecue Society was founded on. The society's charter lists preserving barbecue tradition as one of its covenants. Allowing propane is at odds with this covenant and KCBS looks very hypocritical for considering it. Allowing propane is not a simple rule change such as changing the pork rule. Allowing propane will fundamentally and forever change KCBS in a way that there will be no going back.


The reasons for considering propane that have been given seems specious. It's along the same lines as reducing the maximum amount of toy points that was done a couple years ago. "It will help increase membership" seems to be the rallying cry for controversial proposals such as the decrease in toy points and LP gas with little to no solid reasoning behind them. If it's simply a membership numbers issue there's a simple solution. Require membership to cook contests. KCBS shouldn't have any more difficulty convincing the American Royal and Brown-Forman of allowing a mandatory membership then they would of allowing LP gas. You have to be a KCBS member to cook Sam's Club contests yet many of those are qualifiers for the Jack draw so even that seems to be a moot point.


There is a lot of discontent in KCBS right now. If membership is decreasing one would think the focus would be on retaining current members versus simply looking to expand the pool at the same or greater attrition rate. Currently the KCBS product brand is fading.


  • KCBS used to require a guaranteed prize pool letter. As a cook when I saw a KCBS contest I was confident that the prize money advertised would be the prize money paid. KCBS removed that requirement and now contests are defaulting.
  • KCBS judging has become wildly inconsistent. The judging system badly needs an overall. If anything this is where KCBS should be focusing its resources and efforts. The phrase "we're working on it" is no longer sufficient, the board should present an outline of a plan to the membership and regular updates on how this problem is being addressed.
  • KCBS continues to hold judging schools (although that number has decreased) and pump new judges into an already saturated market. People come, take the judging class, then find they can't get into any events for at least a year. They lose interest and move on.
  • True or not, justified or not, this proposed rule change to allow propane appears to be about one thing, money. Past KCBS boards have a history of granting exceptions and making special rules where sponsors are concerned so skepticism in this regard is justified. We hear phrases such as "grow our business", "increased sponsorship"and "additional sponsorship opportunities" yet the question remains for who? Even at contests that are advertised with major sponsors the amount of entry fees that are returned as prize money are generally less than 50%. With the exception of Sam's Club almost every contest prize pool is funded by entry fees. Cooks are not naïve, they recognize that infrastructure and rental expenses are a part of barbecue contest life yet yet cooks aren't gullible either, where is the money going? Yes Charitable giving has always been a big part of the barbecue world but since cooks have to pay taxes on winnings, if 50% of their entry fee is going to a charitable organization why are they not reaping the benefits of that with a charitable donation letter ?
Adding propane or LP gas as a fuel source is not a simple thing. Many municipalities and communities have strict regulations regarding the use of these fuels at public functions.



While there are many commercial manufacturers of propane fueled cookers who submit their cookers to rigorous testing and certification program such as UL, there are many cooker manufacturers who are not engineers, nor do they submit their cookers for testing and certification. How will you regulate this? The comment has been made that only certain cookers will be allowed and there will be inspections but who will do this? How will they be trained? Will they be trained and certified by KCBS as propane cooker inspectors? If so, what kind of liability for their actions will KCBS be assuming in case of an accident?



How will this affect organizer and facility liability insurance? Will the propane fuel source be something that organizers can restrict or deny at will based on their municipality codes? Will KCBS not sanction events where the organizer submits that they cannot allow propane or LP gas? It's very possible that allowing propane and LP will result in a decrease in the number of contests as they cannot accommodate the LP rule and still get sanctioned.



In summary this is not a decision that should be made lightly. We cannot afford ready, fire, aim in this instance. The board should table the use of propane and LP gas as a fuel source until at least 2019 while a special committee is appointed to research and look at all the ramifications of this change. That committee should then submit and publish a complete set of rules and procedures detailing these changes to be approved by the membership before implementing such a radical change.
 
KCBS judging has become wildly inconsistent. The judging system badly needs an overall. If anything this is where KCBS should be focusing its resources and efforts. The phrase "we're working on it" is no longer sufficient, the board should present an outline of a plan to the membership and regular updates on how this problem is being addressed.

I see cooks say this a lot, but I just don't see it in my area. Now that I can look at my scores, I'd have to say that the tables I have judged at are more consistent than I would have believed.

What do cooks want? Not generalities, but a detailed list. I'd like to see it. I'd probably concur on several items. But the only thing that 'the judges are farked up" accomplishes is further antagonism between cooks and judges.

Pretty good letter otherwise. :thumb:
 
This went to the BOD yesterday:

There are a lot of arguments and accusations on both sides of the propane issue floating around on Facebook. Here's how it looks to this cook:

Propane goes against all of the traditions and principles that the Kansas City barbecue Society was founded on. The society's charter lists preserving barbecue tradition as one of its covenants. Allowing propane is at odds with this covenant and KCBS looks very hypocritical for considering it. Allowing propane is not a simple rule change such as changing the pork rule. Allowing propane will fundamentally and forever change KCBS in a way that there will be no going back.


The reasons for considering propane that have been given seems specious. It's along the same lines as reducing the maximum amount of toy points that was done a couple years ago. "It will help increase membership" seems to be the rallying cry for controversial proposals such as the decrease in toy points and LP gas with little to no solid reasoning behind them. If it's simply a membership numbers issue there's a simple solution. Require membership to cook contests. KCBS shouldn't have any more difficulty convincing the American Royal and Brown-Forman of allowing a mandatory membership then they would of allowing LP gas. You have to be a KCBS member to cook Sam's Club contests yet many of those are qualifiers for the Jack draw so even that seems to be a moot point.


There is a lot of discontent in KCBS right now. If membership is decreasing one would think the focus would be on retaining current members versus simply looking to expand the pool at the same or greater attrition rate. Currently the KCBS product brand is fading.


  • KCBS used to require a guaranteed prize pool letter. As a cook when I saw a KCBS contest I was confident that the prize money advertised would be the prize money paid. KCBS removed that requirement and now contests are defaulting.
  • KCBS judging has become wildly inconsistent. The judging system badly needs an overall. If anything this is where KCBS should be focusing its resources and efforts. The phrase "we're working on it" is no longer sufficient, the board should present an outline of a plan to the membership and regular updates on how this problem is being addressed.
  • KCBS continues to hold judging schools (although that number has decreased) and pump new judges into an already saturated market. People come, take the judging class, then find they can't get into any events for at least a year. They lose interest and move on.
  • True or not, justified or not, this proposed rule change to allow propane appears to be about one thing, money. Past KCBS boards have a history of granting exceptions and making special rules where sponsors are concerned so skepticism in this regard is justified. We hear phrases such as "grow our business", "increased sponsorship"and "additional sponsorship opportunities" yet the question remains for who? Even at contests that are advertised with major sponsors the amount of entry fees that are returned as prize money are generally less than 50%. With the exception of Sam's Club almost every contest prize pool is funded by entry fees. Cooks are not naïve, they recognize that infrastructure and rental expenses are a part of barbecue contest life yet yet cooks aren't gullible either, where is the money going? Yes Charitable giving has always been a big part of the barbecue world but since cooks have to pay taxes on winnings, if 50% of their entry fee is going to a charitable organization why are they not reaping the benefits of that with a charitable donation letter ?
Adding propane or LP gas as a fuel source is not a simple thing. Many municipalities and communities have strict regulations regarding the use of these fuels at public functions.



While there are many commercial manufacturers of propane fueled cookers who submit their cookers to rigorous testing and certification program such as UL, there are many cooker manufacturers who are not engineers, nor do they submit their cookers for testing and certification. How will you regulate this? The comment has been made that only certain cookers will be allowed and there will be inspections but who will do this? How will they be trained? Will they be trained and certified by KCBS as propane cooker inspectors? If so, what kind of liability for their actions will KCBS be assuming in case of an accident?



How will this affect organizer and facility liability insurance? Will the propane fuel source be something that organizers can restrict or deny at will based on their municipality codes? Will KCBS not sanction events where the organizer submits that they cannot allow propane or LP gas? It's very possible that allowing propane and LP will result in a decrease in the number of contests as they cannot accommodate the LP rule and still get sanctioned.



In summary this is not a decision that should be made lightly. We cannot afford ready, fire, aim in this instance. The board should table the use of propane and LP gas as a fuel source until at least 2019 while a special committee is appointed to research and look at all the ramifications of this change. That committee should then submit and publish a complete set of rules and procedures detailing these changes to be approved by the membership before implementing such a radical change.

I could agree a committee is not a bad idea to see how it would have an impact on the organization. That is definitely a wise way to approach it.

As to preserving tradition... What tradition? Is a guru considered traditional? How about a pellet cooker? I don't see how these things are preserving traditional barbecue at all. That ship already sailed it appears.

I think studying the impact before changing the rules is a great idea.

If it can be done safely I see no problem allowing gas. As to preserving tradition kcbs hasn't done that. You would have to ban pellet cookers and pit temp controllers for the same reason. They are not traditional.
I don't mind pellet cookers or gurus but they aren't traditional at all.
 
I see cooks say this a lot, but I just don't see it in my area. Now that I can look at my scores, I'd have to say that the tables I have judged at are more consistent than I would have believed.

What do cooks want? Not generalities, but a detailed list. I'd like to see it. I'd probably concur on several items. But the only thing that 'the judges are farked up" accomplishes is further antagonism between cooks and judges.

Pretty good letter otherwise. :thumb:

First, it's not a JUDGE problem, It's a Judging (system) problem. There's a difference.

What would I like to see? (no particular order)


  • All judges have to go through an online course and certify that they understand whatever the scoring standard KCBS settles on (Start at 6 Start at 9 start who knows where)
  • All CBJ classes are taught in the same manner and to the same standards. Instructor freelancing to their personal opinions will not be tolerated
  • CBJ classes go back to talking about taste and tenderness by having the cook cook comp food, not meh food. This means smaller classes.
  • Teach new CBJ's what balanced flavors are: Discuss things like over salted sweet/heat/salt balance etc. Actually educate new CBJ's
  • New CBJ's have to pass an exam about what they learned. If they fail they have to repeat the course.
  • Every judge needs to take a yearly online refresher to stay up to date and stay within established judging parameters.
  • Give Table Captains some real autonomy to perform their duties. Table captains can be more than food passers.
  • Revise the score sheet so that comment cards are incorporated into the score card. EVERY entry gets a comment, even if that means making the turn in period 45 minutes
  • Stop trying to manipulate the random event that is judge seating. Seating judges by # of comps or even average score is pointless since each competition is unique. Judges are seated by random draw.
  • Eliminate the 2-9 scoring for appearance: A box is either; Excellent, OK, or Poor. I'd even go as far to say revise the scoring system to be 5-9.
There are more but these are just off the top of my head.
 
As to preserving tradition... What tradition? Is a guru considered traditional? How about a pellet cooker? I don't see how these things are preserving traditional barbecue at all. That ship already sailed it appears.
I disagree. Wood and charcoal in all their variations are traditional. A temperature control device is an enhancement, pellets are a variation. Gas is a different species.
 
I disagree. Wood and charcoal in all their variations are traditional. A temperature control device is an enhancement, pellets are a variation. Gas is a different species.

I disagree with you as well.
A temp controller is taking control of the pit. It takes away from tradition. It does not enhance it. For myself and I am sure many others part of the barbecue tradition is fire management. It turns it into a barbecue microwave when you use a temp controller. Pellet grills also use a temp controller. That is far from traditional. As far as pellet grills go you pop the lid and turn a knob and wait for the fire to be established and then you turn the knob to the desired temp and preheat it and then you put your meat on and wait. Just keep the pellet hopper full and you are good to go.
Don't get me wrong they are cool innovations but when you have a computer doing the work it's not traditional. It has removed part of the process for the sake of simplicity.
Gas is definitely not traditional at all but When temp controllers and pellet grills are allowed I see no reason to ban it based on tradition considering the lack of tradition being preserved.
I do agree though the impact of allowing gas should be evaluated to determine if it can be done safely. I think it can be but am not opposed to seeing that it is checked into.
Imo barbecue is about the process and the end result. Its not just about the end result. I think KCBS abandoned tradition when temp controllers and pellet grills were allowed.
Gas should be allowed as long as temp controllers and pellet grills are allowed. If KCBS is about preserving barbecue tradition then ban the temp controllers and pellet grills. They are not traditional at all.
Barbecue is a process. It is not just the end product. It starts from the time you light the fire until you pull the meat off your pit. It is not just the end result.
Don't get me wrong I would love If KCBS was about traditional Barbecue but it hasn't been for a long time. That ship sailed. It fundamentally already changed forever a long time ago. Pellet grills and temp controllers will never be banned and barbecue microwaves are here to stay. So what difference does banning gas make now? None. KCBS failed to preserve traditional barbecue already.

Not to say there aren't barbecue teams trying to preserve traditional barbecue. There are plenty of teams not using temp controllers. Part of why I recently purchased a 270 smoker was that they really emphasize that you don't need a temp controller. I think preserving tradition is very important. The thing is I just can't see why gas should be banned when pellet grills and temp controllers are allowed.
 
So what’s the difference between having a teammate whose purpose is to stay up and stoke a fire to keep temperature vs a guru device other than one is made of flesh and one is made of metal? They both serve the same function however one would be considered traditional and the other not.
 
So what’s the difference between having a teammate whose purpose is to stay up and stoke a fire to keep temperature vs a guru device other than one is made of flesh and one is made of metal? They both serve the same function however one would be considered traditional and the other not.

Well, if that person is old and wise then they are a true BBQ Guru and, as we all have been told Guru's aren't traditional so we should also ban pit assistants.:biggrin1::becky::biggrin1::heh::heh:

The ^^above^^ is sillyness in case anyone wants to get in a twist over it.
 
First, it's not a JUDGE problem, It's a Judging (system) problem. There's a difference.

What would I like to see? (no particular order)


  • All judges have to go through an online course and certify that they understand whatever the scoring standard KCBS settles on (Start at 6 Start at 9 start who knows where)
This may or may not help. It will depend on the individual.
  • All CBJ classes are taught in the same manner and to the same standards. Instructor freelancing to their personal opinions will not be tolerated
My class, my wife's class, and classes I've assisted followed a standard Powerpoint presentation. I don't remember any straying. This may be totally different depending on the instructor. I agree 100%.
  • CBJ classes go back to talking about taste and tenderness by having the cook cook comp food, not meh food. This means smaller classes.
I'd take this a step further, and present specific flawed entries as well, then discuss the flaws.
  • Teach new CBJ's what balanced flavors are: Discuss things like over salted sweet/heat/salt balance etc. Actually educate new CBJ's
You can't teach this without tasting IMHO. KCBS needs to have a 'meat lab' so to speak.
  • New CBJ's have to pass an exam about what they learned. If they fail they have to repeat the course.
Amen, brother. I've been saying this all along. Anyone can raise a hand.
  • Every judge needs to take a yearly online refresher to stay up to date and stay within established judging parameters.
Just ask a judge if fried chicken is allowed as an entry and watch their responses. People don't stay up with rule changes.
  • Give Table Captains some real autonomy to perform their duties. Table captains can be more than food passers.
This opens up another whole can of worms. TCs are often judges tasked to be a TC, when they have no training, nor been a TC before. This happened to my wife at the last event we judged.
  • Revise the score sheet so that comment cards are incorporated into the score card. EVERY entry gets a comment, even if that means making the turn in period 45 minutes
I'd be happy to do this. But I'll need that extra 15 minutes.
  • Stop trying to manipulate the random event that is judge seating. Seating judges by # of comps or even average score is pointless since each competition is unique. Judges are seated by random draw.
You may get disagreement from fellow cooks here, who complain of the table of death. I don't know the answer.
  • Eliminate the 2-9 scoring for appearance: A box is either; Excellent, OK, or Poor. I'd even go as far to say revise the scoring system to be 5-9.
The scoring system is already a 5-9 (except for DQs and 1s) due to scoring inflation. I've heard a judge state more than one time, "Boy, number three was horrible. I had to give it a 5." Why not a 3???

There are more but these are just off the top of my head.

Great reply. Thanks.
 
More......:twitch:

First, it's not a JUDGE problem, It's a Judging (system) problem. There's a difference.

What would I like to see? (no particular order)


  • All judges have to go through an online course and certify that they understand whatever the scoring standard KCBS settles on (Start at 6 Start at 9 start who knows where)
This may or may not help. It will depend on the individual.
Getting everyone on the same page is a big step in the right direction

  • All CBJ classes are taught in the same manner and to the same standards. Instructor freelancing to their personal opinions will not be tolerated
My class, my wife's class, and classes I've assisted followed a standard Powerpoint presentation. I don't remember any straying. This may be totally different depending on the instructor. I agree 100%.
Not the case here. A good bit of freelancing goes on.

  • CBJ classes go back to talking about taste and tenderness by having the cook cook comp food, not meh food. This means smaller classes.
I'd take this a step further, and present specific flawed entries as well, then discuss the flaws.
When I took my CBJ class 7 years ago we did exactly that

  • Teach new CBJ's what balanced flavors are: Discuss things like over salted sweet/heat/salt balance etc. Actually educate new CBJ's
You can't teach this without tasting IMHO. KCBS needs to have a 'meat lab' so to speak.
Again yes, in my CBJ class there were a number of different flavor profiles and we explored each.

  • New CBJ's have to pass an exam about what they learned. If they fail they have to repeat the course.
Amen, brother. I've been saying this all along. Anyone can raise a hand.
  • Every judge needs to take a yearly online refresher to stay up to date and stay within established judging parameters.
Just ask a judge if fried chicken is allowed as an entry and watch their responses. People don't stay up with rule changes.
Yep

  • Give Table Captains some real autonomy to perform their duties. Table captains can be more than food passers.
This opens up another whole can of worms. TCs are often judges tasked to be a TC, when they have no training, nor been a TC before. This happened to my wife at the last event we judged.
This is true. With authority come additional training and experience. You would no longer be able to tap anyone to TC

  • Revise the score sheet so that comment cards are incorporated into the score card. EVERY entry gets a comment, even if that means making the turn in period 45 minutes
I'd be happy to do this. But I'll need that extra 15 minutes.
  • Stop trying to manipulate the random event that is judge seating. Seating judges by # of comps or even average score is pointless since each competition is unique. Judges are seated by random draw.
You may get disagreement from fellow cooks here, who complain of the table of death. I don't know the answer.
TOD's exist as do TOA's Sometimes you hit a TOD. Accept it and move on. What you don't want is feel good theater that makes people think it's solving the problem. Contests are singular events where no variable is repeated. Everything is random. You cannot average random events and produce meaningful data. What I've noticed is the more people try to muck around with it the worse it gets. Eliminate the theater, random draw seating. I'll wager you won't see a lot of difference.

  • Eliminate the 2-9 scoring for appearance: A box is either; Excellent, OK, or Poor. I'd even go as far to say revise the scoring system to be 5-9.
The scoring system is already a 5-9 (except for DQs and 1s) due to scoring inflation. I've heard a judge state more than one time, "Boy, number three was horrible. I had to give it a 5." Why not a 3???
I call it "score creep" That also needs to be addressed. Any CBJ instructor or rep that says "and don't forget when your scoring how much money and effort the cooks put into this. If you give a 7 it gives them no chance" should be flogged.


There are more but these are just off the top of my head.
 
Just ask a judge if fried chicken is allowed as an entry and watch their responses. People don't stay up with rule changes.
Yep

When I was reformatting the 50 question CBJ refresher (nobody wanted to call it a test)
the very last question was "Is fried chicken a legal entry" Yes it is, but the reps on the CBJ Committee and the owner of KCBS had a kitten!
"No way we're going to put that in there, we'll have all kinds of cooks turning in fried chicken, look at how much more headache that will give us"
The committee chair took it out after the whole committee allowed it.
Seemed to me that if they didn't like the situation they could have simply changed the rule...
Ed
 
Just ask a judge if fried chicken is allowed as an entry and watch their responses. People don't stay up with rule changes.
Yep

When I was reformatting the 50 question CBJ refresher (nobody wanted to call it a test)
the very last question was "Is fried chicken a legal entry" Yes it is, but the reps on the CBJ Committee and the owner of KCBS had a kitten!
"No way we're going to put that in there, we'll have all kinds of cooks turning in fried chicken, look at how much more headache that will give us"
The committee chair took it out after the whole committee allowed it.
Seemed to me that if they didn't like the situation they could have simply changed the rule...
Ed

The question is still there. I saw it the other day when I went through the review questions.
 
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