2 Problems for new Yoder Wichita owner

[Bigdog]

Perhaps Joe Phillips likes his food to taste like carbon? I understand what he's saying about "slowing" things down and that makes sense to me, but certainly not at the expense of ash and creosote. And again with that garbage about using kiln-dried wood... kind of a joke to be honest.

And Wow Slamkeys, you are really on this! haha At this point I'm just going to end up selling my Cheyenne locally to get a bit of cash. I can't deal with the frustration of using it when I have my Johnson Smoker which works so well and is so easy to operate in comparison.

No he doesn't. The trick is to have a small, hot, clean burning fire. This is achieved with fire management skills. It's really not that hard to do. You must reduce the intake but not so much that you choke it. Maintain a hot coal base and preheat your logs so they ignite immediately. Leave the exhaust wide open too. The result is a fire that delivers sweet blue smoke and no bitter taste.

 

[SmoothBoarBBQ]

No he doesn't. The trick is to have a small, hot, clean burning fire. This is achieved with fire management skills. It's really not that hard to do. You must reduce the intake but not so much that you choke it. Maintain a hot coal base and preheat your logs so they ignite immediately. Leave the exhaust wide open too. The result is a fire that delivers sweet blue smoke and no bitter taste.

On a Cheyenne you CAN'T reduce the intake or it will snuff out the fire almost immediately. That's the issue with their smaller smokers and that's what this entire thread is about.

I'm fully on board with a good coal base and having nice, seasoned wood, but there's just no way to keep a super clean fire going on a Cheyenne unless the firebox door is open.

I also want to say that on my offset Johnson Smoker I don't need to pre-heat my logs or use kiln-dried wood to achieve a beautiful thin, blue smoke. So if the Yoder's have issues where you have to do things differently than other smokers then it's likely an issue with their design. Funny enough even Yoder recognizes their design has an issue and they're working on fixing it by modifying the firebox door... I wonder why they would do that if all you had to do was follow the steps you've listed.

 

[Bigdog]

You bring up some good points here. This is an inherent problem with a small smoker. It is why they developed the Cimmarron, but my personal favorite is the Frontiersman. Bigger is better, to a point. But your best point is that each smoker is different. I totally agree. Sounds like you much prefer your Johnson Smoker so I agree that you should sell the Yoder and just use it.

 

[slamkeys]

I noted several times on the Yoder forum that I was able to use the intake damper on my Wichita only when I was using the charcoal basket. Charcoal doesn't need as much air to burn cleanly, so I was able to keep my ~225F temperature by closing the factory door and setting the damper about 1/3 open. With that setting, the coals in the basket would actually produce an open flame, and snake through the basket (minion style) for about 5 hours until the coals were depleted. Yoder must be aware of this or they wouldn't harp on the need to have a large "coal base." The problem I encountered, and heard from other owners, was that I had no way to maintain a large coal base throughout the cook without leaving the door open all the time. As soon as I attempted to close the door my coal bed would disappear, and Yoder suggested I just keep making new coals with a charcoal chimney throughout the cook in order to maintain a large coal base.

If we were to use only coals on these smaller Yoder offsets then we could definitely use the intake damper (door closed) to control the temperatures. I've seen videos of old BBQ joints where they maintained a huge silo fire all day long and then used shovels to bring coals to the pits, which means their pits never actually see raw firewood because it is already reduced to embers when they shovel it in.

Likewise, I've seen videos where teams use barrel silos like this one to create the coals, and then scoop them into the cooker with a shovel:

Regarding the Cheyenne, there aren't many videos out there, but there is one cook named Michael Doyle who has posted a handful of videos demonstrating his Yoder Cheyenne with the heat management plate installed. When I initially watched his series of videos, I noticed he had adopted the "Yoder Way" of managing his fire. He talks about pre-heating his splits on top of the firebox, turning his cooker into the wind, but most importantly he completely abandoned the idea of using the damper to control temperatures and always cooks with the door wide open. He mentions that his temperature gets a little hot this way, but he continues to rely on the size of his fire to control temperature instead of closing the door.

Preheat the wood, turn the cooker into the wind, leave door open:

The temperature gets a little hot, but leaving the door open solves the smoldering issue and helps maintain the coal bed. However, smoke still pours out of this end when new wood is added for the same reasons it happens on the Wichita (notice the scorching above the door opening).

By contrast, this photo of my modified Wichita door from this past weekend shows that it still doesn't have any scorching after 2 months of cooks because I am able to leave the door closed now, and I prefer to add wood from the top door because it's much easier on my back and knees. I originally used the side door to add wood, but it's a little too confined in there for me to work the fire easily.

 

[SmoothBoarBBQ]

You bring up some good points here. This is an inherent problem with a small smoker. It is why they developed the Cimmarron, but my personal favorite is the Frontiersman. Bigger is better, to a point. But your best point is that each smoker is different. I totally agree. Sounds like you much prefer your Johnson Smoker so I agree that you should sell the Yoder and just use it.

This is kind of a poor attitude... "don't like it, use something else." The real issue is that there is a problem with the drafting system on the smaller Yoders and ever Yoder has acknowledged it. Also, there are tons of small smokers out there which function properly and don't have enormous drafting issues.

Anyways, I loved my Yoder once I figured out how to cook on it, but after I played around with some other stick-burners I was literally shocked at how difficult the Yoder is to operate in comparison. You mention the bigger cookers but this thread is mainly about the Wichita and I've also seen some Cheyenne owners having the same problem. No point in ignoring the actual problem and pretending it's all "user error," especially when the manufacturer acknowledges there's a problem.

 

[SmoothBoarBBQ]

I can't believe people have resorted to literally shoveling coals from a burn barrel to their Yoder offset smokers so they can actually make it function properly. I'm just glad that this thread, and most likely the constant tenacity of Slamkeys, has finally forced Yoder to take another look and make some modifications to their current design.

 

[IXL]

^^^^ Don't forget, in order to truly achieve smoking success with the Yoder, one must use kiln-dried wood ( lovingly cut by hand during winter, when the sap is down) in that burn barrel........

 

[slamkeys]

I can't believe people have resorted to literally shoveling coals from a burn barrel to their Yoder offset smokers so they can actually make it function properly.

I've thought about doing it before, but I kept thinking, "I bought a stick burner, shouldn't it be burning the sticks by itself?" :crazy:

At any rate, another Loaded Wichita owner defended his purchase on the Yoder forum by declaring all the issues were his own fault (and I disagree), which had me wondering if he was an employee or something. Notice how he talks about a very large coal base being the key, and even admits he adds a fresh chimney of coals for every 3rd log - amazing:

When I first got my Wichita, it required a lot more supervision than it does now. I had to tinker with vents, open doors, etc. Honestly, even though I had to pay more attention to it, leave a door cracked, tinker with vents, etc. it never bothered me. As long as the pit temperature is where it needs to be, my feeling is, so what? It's still producing amazing food. Anyway, I can now blame those early experiences on me - the operator and I think there are two primary causes. First, although I had used other lower quality stick burners before, I needed to learn how to operate the Wichita most efficiently. Second, the wood I was using was not as well seasoned as it needed to be. I used to try to start the cooker on a single chimney of lump charcoal. While it worked, I don't think that was enough of a coal bed to run an efficient fire. I then bumped that up to a chimney and a half, and fire management became easier. Recently, I've been starting off with a full two chimneys of lump and that seems to have been a game changer. On top of that, the "seasoned" oak that I purchased when I got the cooker has had an additional 6 months to season. It ignites much more quickly and burns cleanly without any heavy white smoke.

Maybe it's the combination of starting with a larger coal bed and the seasoning of the wood, but I do not have to tinker with open doors and vents much at all. On occasion I do need to leave the firebox door cracked for a few minutes to ensure a new log ignites cleanly, but after that, the door remains closed and I get good clean smoke for a solid 45 minutes before I need to add more fuel. I use oak as my primary wood source to produce good heat. I'll add some flavoring wood to that, but I've found that it's important to use wood that produces good heat to keep that fire running cleanly. I will also add another chimney of lump with every third log or so in order to maintain a good coal base. I have not tinkered with the chimney vent at all. I leave it wide open. My firebox vent usually sits about 3/4 of the way open. My temps vary from side to side by about 75 degrees even with the heat management plate, but I like that. I almost always cook chicken along with ribs or pork butt and higher cooking temperature is ideal for the chicken.

Notice how he says he had used "low quality" stick burners before, but after upgrading to the Yoder it was more difficult. That hardly seems like a good upgrade path if the dream cooker takes the fun out of the cook and makes you work twice as hard. I can't imagine firing up a fresh chimney of lump for every 3rd log. Lump ain't cheap! :mmph:

My Wichita Experience:
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1354&p=8551

 

[BlueandGoldBBQ]

2 chimneys and another every third log! Holy crap! Do they recommend wrapping the kiln dried seasoned free range logs with $20 bills also?

 

[DaveAlvarado]

I can't believe people have resorted to literally shoveling coals from a burn barrel to their Yoder offset smokers so they can actually make it function properly. I'm just glad that this thread, and most likely the constant tenacity of Slamkeys, has finally forced Yoder to take another look and make some modifications to their current design.

That's a totally legit BBQ style, but you can do it a whole lot cheaper with some cinder blocks, some expanded steel grating, and a sheet of corrugated roofing tin. You'll get more grate space too.

 

[ssv3]

I think Yoder is onto something. Hybrid smoker?? :crazy:

2 chimneys and another every third log! Holy crap! Do they recommend wrapping the kiln dried seasoned free range logs with $20 bills also?

 

[Bigdog]

This is kind of a poor attitude... "don't like it, use something else." The real issue is that there is a problem with the drafting system on the smaller Yoders and ever Yoder has acknowledged it. Also, there are tons of small smokers out there which function properly and don't have enormous drafting issues.

Anyways, I loved my Yoder once I figured out how to cook on it, but after I played around with some other stick-burners I was literally shocked at how difficult the Yoder is to operate in comparison. You mention the bigger cookers but this thread is mainly about the Wichita and I've also seen some Cheyenne owners having the same problem. No point in ignoring the actual problem and pretending it's all "user error," especially when the manufacturer acknowledges there's a problem.

I am sorry if you took it that way. It was not my intention. I was just saying that small barrel smokers are harder to maintain than larger ones. And as for selling your it, I was just agreeing with you on that point as you seemed to be happier cooking on you Johnson Smoker and mentioned selling the Yoder.

 

[JokerBroker]

Another big problem with all of that charcoal is it adds nothing to the taste of the BBQ. In and of itself, charcoal is flavorless and produces BBQ that tastes like pot roast. It's the wood, before it is reduced to charcoal, that produces the aromatics which provide the best flavor to the meat.

 

[Notorious Q.U.E.]

Before I got my Lang and Shirley , I was within a whisker of getting the loaded Wichita. I feel like I dodged a bullet. I agree with smoothboar, a stick burner should burn sticks. It's a trip that they don't just own up.

Slamkeys, I salute your tenacity . It shows what a motivated individual can do!!

 

[Bigdog]

I have added logs to Yoder stick burners hundreds of times and the only times (about 5) that I have added charcoal to the fire box is when I waited too long before adding the next stick.

 

[JokerBroker]

I have added logs to Yoder stick burners hundreds of times and the only times (about 5) that I have added charcoal to the fire box is when I waited too long before adding the next stick.

Were you using one of the smaller models and were you able to shut the firebox door right away? I think that is what the gripe is all about.

 

[JokerBroker]

...I was within a whisker of getting the loaded Wichita. I feel like I dodged a bullet. Slamkeys, I salute your tenacity!

+1

I was ready to order a Loaded Wichita as well until I stumbled across this thread. Slamkeys was clearly not some internet troll with a vendetta against Yoder. Anyone who read the whole thread could see that. I continued my research and ordered the LSG, which began to be built yesterday as a matter or fact!:clap2:

 

[SmoothBoarBBQ]

That's a totally legit BBQ style, but you can do it a whole lot cheaper with some cinder blocks, some expanded steel grating, and a sheet of corrugated roofing tin. You'll get more grate space too.

I have nothing against shoveling coals from a burn barrel, but it's really not the best way to go with an offset STICK burner. haha For cinder block pits or direct heat whole-hog style cookers then shoveling coals is absolutely the best way to go. But if you're shoveling coals into an offset stick burner you're really wasting your time.... without the fat / moisture from the meat coming into direct contact with the coals you're not going to get any smoke flavor at all.

Last year at the NBBQA conference I got to cook a whole hog with Sam Jones and his crew overnight. Good times sitting around the burn barrel and shoveling coals and just shooting the s**t... I'm not really a fan of the heavy vinegar of Carolina pulled pork, but Sam Jones does it very well and with just enough vinegar to give it some flavor but without overpowering the pork.

 

[slamkeys]

I have nothing against shoveling coals from a burn barrel, but it's really not the best way to go with an offset STICK burner.

Right. I was thinking about the massive amount of BTU's that go up into the air from the burn barrel instead of into the cooker. For the backyard cook who is trying to save money on wood, that's a lot of wasted heat. I'm trying to make my wood stack last as long as possible before I need to buy more because I'm cooking all the time, not just once in a blue moon.

BTW, Joe Phillips said the "coal base" is where all the heat comes from. My experience is I get a lot of heat from burning wood too.

 

[Bigdog]

Were you using one of the smaller models and were you able to shut the firebox door right away? I think that is what the gripe is all about.

No. Keep it wide open until the logs are lit and you have a clean hot fire.