Table of Death

[Melissaredhead]

op2:

 

[virginia lawyer]

:boxing::boink::behindsofa:

 

[DonnaB]

Yep, I'm one of the naysayer....I cooked 17 contests the last two years, plan on doing 25 this year, currently top 25 in two categories, top 100 in everything else, so I'm a "cook". I'm a KCBS MCJ, I have been a table captain, worked the collection table, worked the grazing table. With that said, maybe you can shed some light on us why this happened at "your" contest. Do you not agree that this is the reps responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen at their contest?

Yes, Burnt, the burden of responsibility is very heavy for reps, and we assume that burden. If you read some of the previous posts, you'll have an understanding of the probable causes of error that can lead to a duplicate entry.

Hope you have a great bbq season. Looks like you are a very busy guy!

 

[Jason TQ]

Yes, Burnt, the burden of responsibility is very heavy for reps, and we assume that burden. If you read some of the previous posts, you'll have an understanding of the probable causes of error that can lead to a duplicate entry.

Hope you have a great bbq season. Looks like you are a very busy guy!

Hehe. This was perfect :-D.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

I wasn't there but I have worked a lot of contests under the tent with George and Donna. They're two of the best reps I know and whatever happened was an anomaly.

But there is an issue here:
There is a formal process for the box from the cook to the turn in table. There is a formal process for the box from the Table captain to the judges. In between those two,,,,,not so much. The number switch and the box sort is often (mostly) done by volunteers who may or may not have done it before. The reps (if there are only two) are usually monitoring the turn in table and the floor. They can't be everywhere. Perhpas there needs to be some type of script for the turn in volunteers so that they understand the whole process as well as their role.

 

[Smokedelic]

I am all in favor of continuing education or re-education or whatever you might want to call it in order to get ALL judges scoring on the same level. But what KCBS has provided to date is FAR from what is actually needed.
I'd love to see an exam that all judges must pass in order to be able to judge - about SCORING! Until this is instituted, I think that the status quo will continue. AND the TOD/TOA issue will continue as well.

You can email your suggestions for an exam and your proposed solution as to what is actually needed to bod@kcbs.us

 

[DonnaB]

Well, hello there Donna. Name is Robert. I have been a member of KCBS since 1995, member number is below 1800. I have been competing since 1996 on average of about 10 per cook-offs per year. I have been a CBJ since 1997 and my CBJ number is below 700. I have judged numerous cook-offs and have been table captain quite a few times. I have encountered many good reps during this time. I have also encountered a few poor ones, but never poor ones while I've been inside the tent. When I have served as a TC, I have seen the reps work like a well oiled machine and through communication made sure that the TC's distributed the boxes fairly, meaning no duplication of tables. Most of the competitions I have judged have been more than 25 but less than 50 teams. The exception of that would be the American Royal Invitational, which I have had the pleasure of judging three times.

So this ain't my first rodeo.

Now Donna, can you please explain how in a 25 team cook-off that some teams missed table 315 completely and some teams landed there twice? Isn't it your job as a rep to make sure that the contest is administered fairly? It would seem that with only 25 teams that the boxes should be distributed fairly. How could you not? To me, it means you are derelict, meaning that you don't care to perform your duties completely, or you are inept, meaning that you can't perform your duties. Or both. I don't believe it is slanderous to make that observation given the facts that have been presented.

Do you care to enlighten us on what did happen?

Hi Robert. Thanks so much for your response. I appreciate the overview of your experience and history with KCBS, and understand this is not your first rodeo. Sounds like our histories are very similar, the big difference being you haven't been a Rep. My husbands KCBS number is two digits, mine barely above 1000. Like you, we were cooks , earning our way to the American Royal where we proudly took 5th place overall in the open event. We have also repped the Royal, and have had the opportunity to rep in locations all over the country. This isn't our first rodeo either.

Like I suggested to a previous poster, read some of the earlier posts explaining how duplicates can happen.

If you want to continue calling us derelict, inept....whatever, have at it. We'll continue to be good reps, treating Competition BBQ and Repping with all the seriousness and dedication it deserves.

 

[DUBBAGA]

Hi Donna,

It is great that you have come here to address the situation, and to respond to Robert. While reading your responses however, you are making references to possible explanations, but not providing any information about what actually happened at this event.

I would like to direct you to the way another rep chose to respond to a situation here, as it seemed to have a positive outcome for all involved (post #96)
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205344&page=7

I understand the mantra "what happens in the tent stays in the tent", but when there was an obvious error made, providing more transparency does help in rebuilding trust

 

[Rusty Kettle]

While I have zero interest and zero at stake. Just a thought when you got someone saying things like inept and dereliction of duty you might get a little hot around the collar. Not taking any sides in this but some of the words are a bit harsh. Not saying the comments are wrong or right. Just saying. More bees with honey and more flys with chit.

Also, if Slamdunkpro says it was an anomaly then that's good enough for me. I think you guys should give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

I'm not really sure how this thread became an issue about the reps or their ability to do their job....this thread was started to verify the table of death does exist. The Baroody's were nothing but professional at this competition, and accidents can happen. This thread was in no way intended to question the reps as they have little control over how a table will judge over the course of a contest.

It really doesn't matter how long you have been in this game or how hard you flex your BBQ muscles. Mistakes can and will happen. It is inevitable.

 

[Jason TQ]

I'm not really sure how this thread became an issue about the reps or their ability to do their job....this thread was started to verify the table of death does exist. The Baroody's were nothing but professional at this competition, and accidents can happen. This thread was in no way intended to question the reps as they have little control over how a table will judge over the course of a contest.

It really doesn't matter how long you have been in this game or how hard you flex your BBQ muscles. Mistakes can and will happen. It is inevitable.

Very well said. Agree 100% :clap2:.

But as is becoming more common around this forum, people want reps/judges heads when something goes awry at an event and pull the pitchforks quick and scream for "justice" and to publicly out/humiliate the evildoers.

 

[kenthanson]

We've landed on the TOD and it cost us our first GC but it happens. Around here reps are having to fly or drive 12+ hours just to come and do it and it's not like there making a fortune, it's for the love of what they do. I give a hand shake and a hug to every rep that comes and I thank for coming. Without reps we don't have comps, without teams we don't have comps, without judges we don't have comps, without the public we don't have comps and without sponsors we don't have comps, they are all cogs in the machine which makes no one group more or less important than the others.

 

[Alexa RnQ]

Without reps we don't have comps, without teams we don't have comps, without judges we don't have comps, without the public we don't have comps and without sponsors we don't have comps, they are all cogs in the machine which makes no one group more or less important than the others.

Absolutely agreed.

What I don't follow is why this makes it okay for the procedures set in place by KCBS to not be executed properly. Is it only okay to screw cooks?

 

[jcog44]

I am surprised that this is even being discussed.

This is being written from memory, as it has been several years since I table captained (detest the job, and am crappy at it). As I remember, the table captain's trays are built from the table captain's records (each table captain keeps a sheet showing box numbers already assigned, and the first thing they do at the table is to update their sheet). Avoiding duplicates depends on the table captain's being accurate when marking off the box numbers on his sheet. The rep keeps a master sheet, but it would be inefficient and time consuming to check against that every time.

One miss-marked table by the table captain can mean a duplicate, and would not be caught by the rep. Also, note that there are 25 teams and it looks like there were 4 tables. This requires there to be 1 duplicate.

By the way, it appears that the last word in the name of this group has been forgotten.

 

[Uomograsso]

Uomograsso, I think you've missed the point. This isn't about where teams finished in the overall rankings and how they got there. This is about how a single table of judges scores consistently low. Here is a better example. It is a snapshot of how each table ended up in the scoring for each category. 84% of the entries that crossed table 315 finished 16th or worse in their respective category.

Hopefully this will give you a better perspective.

Thanks you very much. It does, but it still doesn't determine whether the judges on that table were truly "low scorers" or did they just get the worst of the teams there for each category. Which unlikely, could be the case. All this shows is that table 315 was unlucky enough to get the worst entries in each category. Possible...yes. Probable...no. BUT, just because something is highly improbable, doesn't mean that it can't happen. Just ask someone who has won the lottery. I have often wondered if KCBS gave access to their database of scores to some data analysts what kind of wonderful things could be divined. Until that happens conjecturing from a single set of data is not valid.

 

[J&B'sBBQ]

Very well said. Agree 100% :clap2:.

But as is becoming more common around this forum, people want reps/judges heads when something goes awry at an event and pull the pitchforks quick and scream for "justice" and to publicly out/humiliate the evildoers.

...as well as becoming overly persnickety toward each other, but that is a conversation for another day...

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

Thanks you very much. It does, but it still doesn't determine whether the judges on that table were truly "low scorers" or did they just get the worst of the teams there for each category. Which unlikely, could be the case. All this shows is that table 315 was unlucky enough to get the worst entries in each category. Possible...yes. Probable...no. BUT, just because something is highly improbable, doesn't mean that it can't happen. Just ask someone who has won the lottery. I have often wondered if KCBS gave access to their database of scores to some data analysts what kind of wonderful things could be divined. Until that happens conjecturing from a single set of data is not valid.

I can tell you that table 315 got entries from all but two teams. I was the highest overall team (9th) that didn't didn't have an entry on that table, and the other was 12th overall. I agree with you that there is a possibility that they could have had their fair share of poor entries. Unfortunately, I do not have that table on my score sheet so I cannot comment on what their average scores were for the day.

It has been my experience that the ToD will often change with the categories, i.e. table 111 is the ToD in chicken, table 222 is the ToD in ribs, etc. This is the first time I have seen only one table score consistently low across all four categories.

 

[Jason TQ]

...as well as becoming overly persnickety toward each other, but that is a conversation for another day...

People really don't use the word "persnickety" enough I think.

 

[Rusty Kettle]

So do table captains track whether a box number comes across the table on a sheet? Like do they mark that number down by writing the number or mark an x next to a list of numbers?

 

[Rusty Kettle]

The reason I ask is wouldn't it be possible to barcode all the boxes and use a scanner to collect that data. There is probably a way if that barcode comes up twice a computer could alert you to that. Just a thought.

I know a scanner can enter data into excel but not sure if you can make it alert you if a number repeats itself.