LVQuefest allentown pa non payment

[jmy1986]

It is front page news on in the morning call which is the paper that covers Allentown and it surrounding areas. I went to this event and was a bit upset with how poorly it was run and how little advertising I saw about it. I think kind of event had the opportunity for success in this area if it would be done right.

 

[BBQchef33]

Admin note:

Folks. I understand theres a boatload of frustration surrounding this and justifiably so. I also think that at this point the word is out and others, be it sponsors, media, or whoever, may be looking into this event and some circumstances surrounding it. I think its in our best interest here to keep the flow of information factual and as civil as possible(leave out any snarkyness) as not to risk having someone, possibly in an official capacity, see it and dismiss it as a load of internet disgruntled gibberish.

Let me be clear... do NOT let this post stifle anyone from voicing your frustration, questions or any relevent information. Just keep it civil and professional. This is NOT referencing anyones post here or any previous behavior in this thread. We have been VERY CIVIL... I am posting preemptively based on past experience with our forum. These type of situations can easily slide into witch hunts and dog piles which eventually detract from the integrity of the thread and cloud the actual issues.

 

[hedge]

Fine, I'll put my pitchfork away.

 

[Scottie]

I am a bit shocked that KCBS hasn't stepped in. Besides saying he is a nice guy. This is another selective process that we get from KCBS. If the organizer had worn a tasteless apron at the awards, it would be all over their radar. But if it actually has to due with reps cheating, CBJ's being drunk they tend to look the other way. Now they are looking the otherway for organizers. Hell, we can even have our marketing guy, run a contest that is in direct conflict with KCBS. What do we do? Let's give them all more power. As a cook, it is starting to really frustrate me that we (cooks) are under the microscope of KCBS and no one else is.

My frustration is not with one BOD member , but the Board as a whole. Priorities always seem to favor everyone but the folks that the Society was formed.

For the record, I am a Lifetime Member of KCBS. And have been a member since 2000.

 

[Slamdunkpro]

I am a bit shocked that KCBS hasn't stepped in.

In all seriousness what would you have KCBS do? If KCBS pays the purse then the precedent is set for this to occur in the future. "Don't have the prize money? No sweat, KCBS will pay em". Depending on the sanctioning agreement's wording KCBS could bring suit for breach of contract for monies owed KCBS but do they have standing to bring suit on behalf of the contestants or even engage a collection agency for that purpose?

Should there have been more diligence on behalf of KCBS and the reps? Yes. Should KCBS re-institute the escrow / guarantee requirements? Yes. Should this organizer be banned from ever getting KCBS sanctioning again? Yes.

These are all things that should have happened prior to the event (except the last one).

IANAL but I don't think KCBS has any standing to bring suit or any leverage now that the event is past.

 

[BBQchef33]

In all seriousness what would you have KCBS do? If KCBS pays the purse then the precedent is set for this to occur in the future. "Don't have the prize money? No sweat, KCBS will pay em". Depending on the sanctioning agreement's wording KCBS could bring suit for breach of contract for monies owed KCBS but do they have standing to bring suit on behalf of the contestants or even engage a collection agency for that purpose?

Should there have been more diligence on behalf of KCBS and the reps? Yes. Should KCBS re-institute the escrow / guarantee requirements? Yes. Should this organizer be banned from ever getting KCBS sanctioning again? Yes.

These are all things that should have happened prior to the event (except the last one).

IANAL but I don't think KCBS has any standing to bring suit or any leverage now that the event is past.

i agree that KCBS should be doing more.. What exactly are they doing for us as competitors except taking our money?


If I remember correctly, KCBS has a decent bank account in the millions. (check the NFP reports). Ive paid KCBS over $3000 to Sanction my contest. What do I get for $3k? 2 reps to come down and run a couple of meetings and the scoring? I can and have done that on my own with my own volunteers. I expect KCBS to bring an integrity and professionalism to the event thru its standards.

As a KCBS member, the bullsheet just dont cut it.. but if they 'insured' the contests I attend, THEN I would be getting something for my dues.

IMO, KCBS should go back to requiring a letter of intent and make the organizers contractually responsible for the advertised prize pool. We(organizers) should be required to prove the money is available 72 hours before the contest. If the organizer then defaults on the day of, KCBS should cover the costs of the guaranteed prize pool and then bring their own legal action against the organizer for breach of contract.

Even better, (i know its administratively not feasible), but in a different world, an option is to pay KCBS the prize pool, and have the reps bring the checks.
No $$ available in the 72 hours window.. no reps show up.

 

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

Just kind of a question based on the " the kcbs should be doing something" line...what if someone that is owed monies isn't a member and the kcbs reached into their pockets to pay out the prize pool? Would that team not get paid by the kcbs because of their lack of membership? If I was at this contest I would FULLY expect the KCBS to be fighting for my awards due to the fact that I am a member and there for they are my Representative . I am not sure a non-member would have any right to anything other than the $12 sanctioning fee.

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

Prior to 2010, KCBS did guarantee the prize and level of pay out and REQUIRED a Letter of Credit from the organizer 90 days prior to the contest. There were a lot of positioning and posturing by one organizer in the South who felt that this was unfair to him as he was well established and could not be bothered by the bs. As a result of this, the board decided to throw the baby out with the bath water and give all organizers carte blanc to screw the pooch and never looked back as the cooks could vote with their feet (after the fact of course).

There may have been some legal things that required the rule to apply to all and because of the pressure from an organizer with support from multiple cooks and reps, rules changed to advertise what you want and no need to worry about the cooks. Just my 2 Cents.

I suspect they are still liable for the rep expenses and pay and will pay them out of membership funds.

 

[Red Valley BBQ]

Just kind of a question based on the " the kcbs should be doing something" line...what if someone that is owed monies isn't a member and the kcbs reached into their pockets to pay out the prize pool? Would that team not get paid by the kcbs because of their lack of membership? If I was at this contest I would FULLY expect the KCBS to be fighting for my awards due to the fact that I am a member and there for they are my Representative. I am not sure a non-member would have any right to anything other than the $12 sanctioning fee.

Based on the fact that KCBS does not require a cook to be a member to compete I would think they would have to pay all winners regardless of membership status.

 

[arrowhead]

Based on the fact that KCBS does not require a cook to be a member to compete I would think they would have to pay all winners regardless of membership status.

I don't believe that is a KCBS requirement.

A contest must be open to all contestants was established as an American Royal Contest Criteria.

 

[Scottie]

When did KCBS quit guaranteeing prize fund? And even if they dint, they need to be more proactive than saying the organizer is a good guy. But that would be proactive for cooks. Does KCBS guarantee the reps expenses if they dont get paid?

 

[joemat]

If I got stiffed I would just have my Uncle Carmine pay him a visit :spy:

He's not much of a BBQ guy --- more a sausage and peppers man.

 

[joemat]

In all seriousness, could the expense for organizing and running the Comp have exceeded the registration fees and other funds raised? Is this a situation where the organizer used the funds for personal gain or is the Comp. just in the red.
In my mind that is a key difference.

 

[BBQchef33]

from what Ive gleamed out of this, he over extended. Booking bands and chain saw carvers, lighting guys, stage, entertainment, etc. Then depended on admissions to cover costs and likely used early income(sponsors, entry fees) to cover early costs and deposits.

bad planning of the inexperienced.

Entry fee is not a liquid asset. Sponsor money is. When i run my contest, early sponsorship and a $3K out of pocket operating budget gets me started. The organizing team starts to secure their 'area' early.. golf carts, potties, generators, water, electric, advertising, etc.. . get ALL THAT in place first.. then check funds and IF there is extra, then comes bands, DJ, team breakfasts, etc... Once the contest starts EVERYTHING is already paid for except some day laborers to haul trash and deliver ice.. Admission will cover the little 'day of' incidentals, reimburses my 3k out of pocket, and the rest goes to our chosen charity.

But to start booking the luxuries when the money is not in the account and use prize pool to pay for stuff... bad planning.

 

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

Based on the fact that KCBS does not require a cook to be a member to compete I would think they would have to pay all winners regardless of membership status.

if you dont have any money or an account does a bank allow you to make a withdraw?

This is some krazy chit right here. I have to say as a member I would look for relief from the KCBS.

I truely feel for those who ( as of now) have not been paid. This thread is becoming a resource for the organizer, competitor and the future of an organization.

at the end of this I hope we all don't walk with the devil in the pale moon light!ray:

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

When did KCBS quit guaranteeing prize fund? And even if they dint, they need to be more proactive than saying the organizer is a good guy. But that would be proactive for cooks. Does KCBS guarantee the reps expenses if they dont get paid?

Here is a link to a thread on a competing board that discusses the 90 day rule: http://www.rbjb.com/rbjb/archives/738214/archive.htm

The discussion starts about half way down and starts with The 90 day rule - drbbq 06:55:49 2/09/10 (64). Observe the date. There were several of us who posted on that particular thread. Interesting reading. I know a lot of water has passed since that time but it is still relevant.

 

[didisea]

I think people are putting too much expectation on the KCBS's role in a BBQ contest. They are there to run the judging, and insure a contest is run according to their rules.

If they got in the business of guaranteeing the prize funds, then I think there would be a lot more organizers defaulting on payments to teams, because they know that the KCBS would be on the hook for the prize money. Where would the KCBS look then to get the prize money? It would have to come out of their operating funds. People say, "Sue the organizer!" Well if the organizer doesn't have the money, it will be costly in legal fees, and a long time trying to collect a judgment from someone who doesn't have the money.

Many people suggested that the KCBS receives the money from the organizer, and pays out the prize money. KCBS would then have to build the infrastructure to do that at the contest. Handing that much cash at contest is probably not a practicable solution. If the cash disappeared, that would be a huge risk, and one that KCBS's insurance/bonding company would not want to cover.

Another suggestion has been to put the funds "in escrow." With who? How does the money come out of escrow? Who's bank account would the funds be placed in? There would be fees associated with doing this. If the contest organized has overextended themselves and written checks to over draw the account, then when the funds that were placed in escrow were put back in, the money would go to who ever was presenting their check first at the bank.

Really, the only scenario that I can come up with to is to create an independent third party accounting and payment company that would pay out the prize money for the BBQ contest organizers. This company would receive the funds in advance and let the sanctioning body know if the funds were not received timely in order to cancel the contest. They would mail/EFT the payments to the teams, and do the year end 1099 reporting.

Now the decision to be made is are the costs associated with doing all of this to ensure the payment of the prize pool to the teams is economically worth it? I don't have the numbers on how many contests totally default on prize pool payments, but I think it is relatively small.

In the end, we need to think about how to balance protecting the teams with the costs associated with doing that. I've tried to think of other creative ways to "insure" payments to the teams, but I cannot come up with other viable options that would not cost more than the prize pools that were defaulted on.

I feel bad for the teams that have not been paid, and I hope they are able to collect their rightful winnings soon.

 

[Goddahavit]

edit never mind, not worth the arguments my response would have started.

 

[Gowan]

This thread has brought up some interesting points. For those who aren't aware of it, I'll post the official "Prize Money Guarantee" that KCBS requires all organizers to submit no later than 90 days before the event date. (see below in italics)

I'm no lawyer, but I believe in order to give KCBS clear legal recourse to collect funds from an organizer that would have to be spelled out in this document. Lacking such, I think the only recourse would be for each team to file suit against the organizer. If that is the case, I can see why the KCBS BoD would want to give the organizer every opportunity to make good on their promises, since if KCBS were to pay the teams there would be no legal avenue for them to recover the money.


This document serves as notification of the awards to be paid for the (Contest Name, Location), in consideration of sanctioning by KCBS, (Organizer Name), and other good and valuable consideration, the receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, the undersigned Organizer, does hereby unconditionally and irrevocably guarantee the full payment of the following cash prizes and other prizes to be awarded at the KCBS sanctioned contest named (Contest Name) on (Date) as follows:

Grand Champion: (Cash amount)
Reserve Champion: (Cash amount)
(Include Additional places, if any.)

KCBS Categories
Chicken, ribs, pork and brisket categories as follows:

1st place: (Cash amount)
2nd place: (Cash amount)
3rd place: (Cash amount)
4th place: (Cash amount)
5th place: (Cash amount)

(Include additional places/categories here.)

Total Cash Amount: ____________________

Organizer understands this guarantee will be relied upon by KCBS, its members and those whom compete at the contest being sanctioned by KCBS for the Organizer.

Organizer Name:______________________________________

Signatory Name: ______________________________________

Date: _________

 

[Smoke'n Ice]

I think people are putting too much expectation on the KCBS's role in a BBQ contest. They are there to run the judging, and insure a contest is run according to their rules.

If they got in the business of guaranteeing the prize funds, then I think there would be a lot more organizers defaulting on payments to teams, because they know that the KCBS would be on the hook for the prize money. Where would the KCBS look then to get the prize money? It would have to come out of their operating funds. People say, "Sue the organizer!" Well if the organizer doesn't have the money, it will be costly in legal fees, and a long time trying to collect a judgment from someone who doesn't have the money.

Many people suggested that the KCBS receives the money from the organizer, and pays out the prize money. KCBS would then have to build the infrastructure to do that at the contest. Handing that much cash at contest is probably not a practicable solution. If the cash disappeared, that would be a huge risk, and one that KCBS's insurance/bonding company would not want to cover.

Another suggestion has been to put the funds "in escrow." With who? How does the money come out of escrow? Who's bank account would the funds be placed in? There would be fees associated with doing this. If the contest organized has overextended themselves and written checks to over draw the account, then when the funds that were placed in escrow were put back in, the money would go to who ever was presenting their check first at the bank.

Really, the only scenario that I can come up with to is to create an independent third party accounting and payment company that would pay out the prize money for the BBQ contest organizers. This company would receive the funds in advance and let the sanctioning body know if the funds were not received timely in order to cancel the contest. They would mail/EFT the payments to the teams, and do the year end 1099 reporting.

Now the decision to be made is are the costs associated with doing all of this to ensure the payment of the prize pool to the teams is economically worth it? I don't have the numbers on how many contests totally default on prize pool payments, but I think it is relatively small.

In the end, we need to think about how to balance protecting the teams with the costs associated with doing that. I've tried to think of other creative ways to "insure" payments to the teams, but I cannot come up with other viable options that would not cost more than the prize pools that were defaulted on.

I feel bad for the teams that have not been paid, and I hope they are able to collect their rightful winnings soon.

Ever been to a Sam's contest where the reps write the checks?