Pstores
is Blowin Smoke!
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2016
- Location
- Hudson, wi
Ok, I’ll play it safe.... smoke a store bought, toss the good stuff.... Thanks everyone. Glad I lost the recipe link and had to comeback here.
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Corned Beef Cure help........
- Thread starter Pstores
- Start date
Did you taste it? I just did a small corned beef, simply cut a small piece off and zapped it to cook. It was chewy of course but tasted fine/didn't need to have salt reduced. I used 8 tablespoons of Tender Quick for 8# of brisket.
We did half of it in the Instant Pot for corned beef sandwiches. The other half is in the freezer for smoking/pastrami in a couple of weeks.
We did half of it in the Instant Pot for corned beef sandwiches. The other half is in the freezer for smoking/pastrami in a couple of weeks.
-Chris-
Knows what a fatty is.
I would eat it, you are not too far off. Recipes have not evolved as quickly as the USDA guidelines, that is all. All smoked and cured food is not good for you, let's be honest. The key is moderation.
Chris
IamMadMan
somebody shut me the fark up.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2011
- Location
- Pemberton, New Jersey
No.....
Wet curing brines are calculated on the amount of water the meat will pick-up while in the brine, usually estimated at a 4% pickup ratio as well as any injected brine.
Using pork immersed for 10 days in 60° SAL brine, with logic and some general estimates one can produce acceptable results. This is much better than copying a recipe from the internet, which in many cases are solely based on what I consider to be the author’s imagination. The actual formulation for a wet cure/cover pickle is a calculated Formula using % pick-up of ppm = lb. nitrite x % pick-up x 1,000,000/lb. pickle.
references - Page 76 - 84
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/7d364131-137e-4da3-905b-fa240974a5a9/7620-3.pdf?MOD=AJPERES
and
http://www.aamp.com/foodsafety/documents/Directive7620-3.pdf
Also here is a good explanation of the process that make it a little more understandable.
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/hams (quoted below)
Without weighing the meat, the only way to determine % pick-up of cured meat is by an educated guess based on previous experience. It is generally accepted that immersion cured hams (60° SAL) pick-up about 4% weight. If we add 4.2 ounces (120 g) of Cure #1 to 1 gallon of brine, the solution will contain 1973 ppm of sodium nitrite. At first sight it may seem that there is an excessive amount of nitrite in water. The answer is that only a small percentage will be absorbed by meat during the immersion process. At 4% pick-up the ham will absorb 79 ppm which will be just enough for any meaningful curing. At 10% pump (needle pumping) the same ham will contain 197 ppm of sodium nitrite which is in compliance with the government standard of 200 ppm. Pumping more than 10% or increasing the amount of cure in the solution will of course cross the limit.
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IamMadMan
somebody shut me the fark up.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2011
- Location
- Pemberton, New Jersey
There is just no substitution for accuracy when it come to health and safety of your family when curing meats.
There is just no substitution for accuracy when it come to health and safety of your family when curing meats.
As Thirdeye and many of us have always said, when curing meat; the cure ingredients should be weighed, never measured, for safety, accuracy, and consistency. As indicated there are many questionable recipes on the internet, just because they are there, doesn't imply accuracy or safety of the resulting product.
If you are unable to accurately weigh the ingredients, then you should forego the use of cure #1 and use Morton Tender Quick which has the Salt, Sugar, and Cure #1 combined in a completely bonded product to make the final product equal so the contents do not settle. Because it is completely bonded and it contains the all of the salt, sugar, and curing agent required for curing; it can be safely measured for use in the home with much less accuracy required. Always follow the directions on the Morton Tender Quick package for proper usage.
Getting back to the original amounts.....
5.5 pounds equals 2494.76 grams
so we see that if we do our weight calculations for a 5.5 pound brisket
We see the required amount of cure for 5.5 pounds is 6.25 Grams
when we convert 6.25 Grams to ounces we end up needing .22 ounces of cure #1
We do know that the weight of the cure was not calculated.
So if we look at one purveyors recommended usage for the measure of cure #1, we find the following. ( https://www.americanspice.com/prague-powder-no-1-pink-curing-salt/ )
"Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lb. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lb. of meat. Mix cure with cold water."
The amount of cure now becomes even more confusing and complicated because they are mixing the cure with water. So now we have to determine if they are building a wet cure or an equilibrium cure because they do not specify the exact amount of water. They are both completely different methods of curing meat.
So the simple solution would be to weigh out the required cure and check the measure. Measuring out 1 level teaspoon of cure #1 several times, I find that I have approx 6.44 - 6.95 grams of Cure #1. I attribute the differences in weight to leveling the teaspoon which might sometimes compress or pack the product in the measuring device; Thus using 1 teaspoon per 5 pounds of meat would be an acceptable measure. Yet we have another source on the internet that lists 1 level tsp of cure #1 at only 5 grams. https://www.reddit.com/r/Charcuterie/comments/6id8er/recipe_calls_for_1_tbsp_curing_salt_per_lb_of/
The OP stated he used 1 Tablespoon of cure #1, which would put the cure at an estimated weight of 15-20 grams vs the required amount of 6.25 grams. He also measures 1 Tablespoon of cure #1 at 12 grams. So again we have so many inconsistencies with measures; I used a reloading scale for it's to accuracy, so;
is there a difference in the weight of cure #1 products? (possibly anti-clumping agents?)
a difference in accuracy of the scales?
or possibly both?
I also saw the online Ruhlman recipe that calls for 4 teaspoons of cure #1, but if you read further you will see he is building a wet cure for his corned beef which is a completely different process than a dry cure or equilibrium cure. http://blog.ruhlman.com/2016/03/homemade-corned-beef/
"In a pot large enough to hold the brisket, combine 1 gallon of water with the kosher salt, sugar, sodium nitrite (if using), garlic, and 2 tablespoons of the pickling spice. Bring to a simmer, stirring until the salt and sugar are dissolved. Remove from the heat and let cool to room temperature, then refrigerate until chilled."
There is just no substitution for accuracy in information and weight when it come to health and safety of your family when curing meats.
We see above so many variances in recipes, measures, products, and suggested usages, which all result in weights that are inconsistent with recommendations. It is best to stick with proven and tested recipes by experts in their craft of curing meat and always use an accurate metric scale to weigh the ingredients.
Again if you are a beginner Morton Tender Quick is an easy to use product that can be measured....
.
There is just no substitution for accuracy when it come to health and safety of your family when curing meats.
As Thirdeye and many of us have always said, when curing meat; the cure ingredients should be weighed, never measured, for safety, accuracy, and consistency. As indicated there are many questionable recipes on the internet, just because they are there, doesn't imply accuracy or safety of the resulting product.
If you are unable to accurately weigh the ingredients, then you should forego the use of cure #1 and use Morton Tender Quick which has the Salt, Sugar, and Cure #1 combined in a completely bonded product to make the final product equal so the contents do not settle. Because it is completely bonded and it contains the all of the salt, sugar, and curing agent required for curing; it can be safely measured for use in the home with much less accuracy required. Always follow the directions on the Morton Tender Quick package for proper usage.
Getting back to the original amounts.....
5.5 pounds equals 2494.76 grams
so we see that if we do our weight calculations for a 5.5 pound brisket
We see the required amount of cure for 5.5 pounds is 6.25 Grams
when we convert 6.25 Grams to ounces we end up needing .22 ounces of cure #1
We do know that the weight of the cure was not calculated.
So if we look at one purveyors recommended usage for the measure of cure #1, we find the following. ( https://www.americanspice.com/prague-powder-no-1-pink-curing-salt/ )
"Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lb. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lb. of meat. Mix cure with cold water."
The amount of cure now becomes even more confusing and complicated because they are mixing the cure with water. So now we have to determine if they are building a wet cure or an equilibrium cure because they do not specify the exact amount of water. They are both completely different methods of curing meat.
So the simple solution would be to weigh out the required cure and check the measure. Measuring out 1 level teaspoon of cure #1 several times, I find that I have approx 6.44 - 6.95 grams of Cure #1. I attribute the differences in weight to leveling the teaspoon which might sometimes compress or pack the product in the measuring device; Thus using 1 teaspoon per 5 pounds of meat would be an acceptable measure. Yet we have another source on the internet that lists 1 level tsp of cure #1 at only 5 grams. https://www.reddit.com/r/Charcuterie/comments/6id8er/recipe_calls_for_1_tbsp_curing_salt_per_lb_of/
The OP stated he used 1 Tablespoon of cure #1, which would put the cure at an estimated weight of 15-20 grams vs the required amount of 6.25 grams. He also measures 1 Tablespoon of cure #1 at 12 grams. So again we have so many inconsistencies with measures; I used a reloading scale for it's to accuracy, so;
is there a difference in the weight of cure #1 products? (possibly anti-clumping agents?)
a difference in accuracy of the scales?
or possibly both?
I also saw the online Ruhlman recipe that calls for 4 teaspoons of cure #1, but if you read further you will see he is building a wet cure for his corned beef which is a completely different process than a dry cure or equilibrium cure. http://blog.ruhlman.com/2016/03/homemade-corned-beef/
"In a pot large enough to hold the brisket, combine 1 gallon of water with the kosher salt, sugar, sodium nitrite (if using), garlic, and 2 tablespoons of the pickling spice. Bring to a simmer, stirring until the salt and sugar are dissolved. Remove from the heat and let cool to room temperature, then refrigerate until chilled."
There is just no substitution for accuracy in information and weight when it come to health and safety of your family when curing meats.
We see above so many variances in recipes, measures, products, and suggested usages, which all result in weights that are inconsistent with recommendations. It is best to stick with proven and tested recipes by experts in their craft of curing meat and always use an accurate metric scale to weigh the ingredients.
Again if you are a beginner Morton Tender Quick is an easy to use product that can be measured....
.
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I am able to accurately weigh cure #1 by trudging to the basement to get my powder scale but I have decided it's not worth the hassle. Tender Quick is cheap, easy, and fast. The TQ recipe is 1/2 oz. per # of meat, easy to measure on an ordinary kitchen scale. No need to accurately measure tiny quantities of cure. I have 8# of TQ buckboard bacon curing in my fridge as we speak. It'll get cold smoked on the Saturday before Easter.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2006
- Location
- At home on the range in Wyoming
Very good information in your post above ^^^. On a side note, and not trying to drive the point of pink salt accuracy (when using both the Prague #1 or #2 products) any farther home... it appears there are inaccuracies in measuring spoons themselves. Look at the reviews below of measuring spoons.
This makes a good point for weighing ingredients which are critical OR for weighing large volumes of ingredients when you want consistency. Some friends make an enormous batch of sausage each year. 600 to 1000 pounds, and it's a very simple recipe for the seasonings: salt, black pepper, white pepper, garlic and Tender Quick (for color only). They measure all the spices by hand but have to recalculate each year because the meat weight changes, and each year the product is slightly different flavorwise. For 5 or 6 years I suggested converting the meat to grams and weighing all the ingredients but "Dad never did that", so why should they. I generally ask for mine in bulk, fry a test pattie and adjust the seasonings as necessary.
http://www.dontwasteyourmoney.com/measuring-spoons-test/
https://www.seriouseats.com/2017/09/best-measuring-spoons-kitchen-equipment-review.html
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2006
- Location
- At home on the range in Wyoming
That is the backbone of the Morton's philosophy when they designed Tender Quick.... If your tablespoon is a little high, or a little shy... you are within an acceptable margin of error. For what it's worth I have both products (TQ and pink salt) and get great results when using in specific recipes.
SirPorkaLot
somebody shut me the fark up.
So much good info (and some bad) on this thread.
I’ll just say this.
Always cure by weight, not by volume.
Even our dry brine which contains only sea salt as the active agent has instructions that requires you to weigh the meat.
Get an inexpensive digital kitchen scale that weighs in grams & ounces and always use net weight (minus weight of container)
I’ll just say this.
Always cure by weight, not by volume.
Even our dry brine which contains only sea salt as the active agent has instructions that requires you to weigh the meat.
Get an inexpensive digital kitchen scale that weighs in grams & ounces and always use net weight (minus weight of container)
Just out of curiosity, when do you not use TQ? I started out my bacon life buying the LEM kits but that phase is over and I am now just using TQ. I recently did a 7# corned beef and just substituted the TQ for the recipe's recommended salt and cure. It turned out great. I am currently doing buckboard bacon using only TQ. What tradeoffs or negatives do you (and IAmMadMan welcome too) see with this approach?
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2006
- Location
- At home on the range in Wyoming
It's preference, convenience, and recipe selection. Pink salt is used by most professional butchers or producers working on large batch products. Technically it's a pre-mixed cure as the sodium nitrite is mixed into a salt carrier, but it allows for the user to make a custom mixture by adding differing amounts of additional salt, sugar or spices. Price is a possible factor on large scale uses, but for home use a little pink salt goes a long way.
TQ is also pre-mixed, but it has a different ratio of salt and has sugar added. It's essentially ready to use right from the bag without adding additional salt. You still have the option to add other signature seasonings. In addition to sodium nitrite, TQ contains an equal amount of sodium nitrate.
TQ and pink salt are not interchangeable, so if you have a proven recipe that calls for one or the other, it's nice to have both on hand at home. Plus if you have both products you can duplicate any recipe you like.
I've made some belly bacon with a pink salt cure, and also with a TQ cure, I actually prefer the TQ cure. I have made some smoked sausage which calls for pink salt, and some which uses TQ. I've also tried hot dog recipes that called for pink salt. For many years I used Hi Mountain Buckboard cure kits, and it is an excellent product but many people contacted me to report that shipping costs for Hi Mountain often approached the price of the product itself. With that in mind I came up with a TQ based Buckboard cure following Morton's recommended amount per pound, plus some additional seasonings, and the end product is comparable to Hi Mountain's product.
Thanks much. Re the pink salt I actually have some but the TQ laziness is overwhelming me. I get it that they are not interchangeable, which I take to mean you can't use identical quantity of one to substitute when the other is called for, but if I just ditch the pink salt and use TQ according to its directions that should be OK, right?
Not sure what to think about the sugar in TQ. My understanding is the the sugar molecules are too big to get into solid meat anyway so they just stay on the surface. In which case the sugar is not doing much. I certainly couldn't taste any sugar in my corned beef. With smoking the bacon I am sure any sugar flavor is obliterated there anyway.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2006
- Location
- At home on the range in Wyoming
Yes, identical amounts of either can't be substituted. Then of course there would be additional salt in a pink salt based recipe, so that would have to be omitted as well.
The sugar in the TQ is to sort of knock the edge off or buffer the saltiness. There shouldn't be enough to taste it. However some people will add brown or maple sugar to their belly bacon cure. I've injected a honey/water mix into Buckboarded loins, and some folks will paint Buckboard loins with maple syrup toward the end of the cook. A few years ago Morton's stopped manufacturing Sugar Cure because of rising sugar costs. SC is a sweeter version of TQ but they didn't want to lose market share so bags of SC is still available, they just have TQ in them..., in the fine print it says SC and TQ can be used interchangeably.
mowin
Full Fledged Farker
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2017
- Location
- Upstate NY
I've used TQ a few times and didn't really care for it. Too salty. Have to soak the meat to reduce the salt.
Using cure#1, I can adjust the amount of salt to my taste.
I wouldn't dismiss a recipe because it uses TQ or cure #1
I know TQ and cure #1 can't be interchanged in a recipe, but it easy to convert a recipe to use TQ or cure #1 by weighing the meat. TQ box has the proper amount to use. I use diggindogfarm.com calculator to calculate the proper amount of cure #1, salt and sugar.
Using cure#1, I can adjust the amount of salt to my taste.
I wouldn't dismiss a recipe because it uses TQ or cure #1
I know TQ and cure #1 can't be interchanged in a recipe, but it easy to convert a recipe to use TQ or cure #1 by weighing the meat. TQ box has the proper amount to use. I use diggindogfarm.com calculator to calculate the proper amount of cure #1, salt and sugar.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2006
- Location
- At home on the range in Wyoming
I would agree that using Martin's calculator, and experimenting with the salt % you prefer... a rinse without a soak-out step should work just fine. Or a rinse and a short soak-out just to fully dissolve the surface salts. For me, a soak-out is just another step, much like the overnight equalization I use on most all cured products. I recall reading that TQ is roughly 3% salt, and many folks settle in between 2 and 2.5% salt.
On a side note, I prefer my belly bacon a tick saltier.... but my Buckboard (especially loins) less salty. For a few years I've been using a lite injection on loins before curing with a mix of apple and white grape juice. On one hand I'm adding weight to the loin, and increasing the sweetness as well. However, my smoking times are between 3 and 5 hours so the 4 hour safety window is covered, but I still take advantage of the wonderful color, especially on the rib end slices.
IamMadMan
somebody shut me the fark up.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2011
- Location
- Pemberton, New Jersey
Just my final personal opinion here.
What really troubles me the most is; I understand that there are many bad curing recipes on the internet, in fact many of us advocate using only tested recipes from known experts / professionals in the craft of curing.
Yet many companies use these same questionable recipes on their website?
I am truly surprised that someone hasn't had had Nitrite poisoning and brought a lawsuit against those who post the recipe without testing the validity and safety of it.
What really troubles me the most is; I understand that there are many bad curing recipes on the internet, in fact many of us advocate using only tested recipes from known experts / professionals in the craft of curing.
Yet many companies use these same questionable recipes on their website?
I am truly surprised that someone hasn't had had Nitrite poisoning and brought a lawsuit against those who post the recipe without testing the validity and safety of it.
-Chris-
Knows what a fatty is.
Refer to my above post, the USDA has been ratcheting down the "safe" level over the past 25 years. Recipes have not changed as quickly since, "Well this is how my Dad did it." sort of thinking. None of the recipes posted are wildly out of control, we have seen proposals from 200 parts per MILLION to 1000 parts per MILLION. It is still a miniscule amount
Don't trust the so called "experts" trust the math and the USDA.
Chris
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2006
- Location
- At home on the range in Wyoming
Over the years, we've all seen a surge in popularity in many things food related... barbecue is a great example. So, when someone buys their first smoker and fails at a brisket cook, it's just experience... they make some changes and try again. Dry or tough brisket might injure your ego or your checkbook, but at most the only danger would be a choking hazard.
Home curing and home canning are two additional examples of trendy food hobbies that look innocent enough but they come with strict guidelines and steadfast rules... not only for producing a quality product, but a safe-to-eat product. I'm shocked that people still do oven canning (including a professional chef I know), or tweak recipes without any consideration to pH levels or food density.... then advocate their method in print or online.
Whether it's a Sunday edition of newspaper, a magazine article, website, or even a cookbook.... I agree that sometimes information (or misinformation) is often shared without consideration for accuracy. It seems it's more about an author's recognition.
IamMadMan
somebody shut me the fark up.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2011
- Location
- Pemberton, New Jersey
Do you have a current reference?
As of April 1, 2017, [Code of Federal Regulations] FDA - Title 21, Chapter 1, Sub-Chapter B, Part 172, section 172.175 still references a Maximum 200 PPM Sodium Nitrite and a Maximum of 500 PPM Sodium Nitrate in the finished meat products.
They do allow 10 PPM as a color fixative in canned fish (tuna, salmon) and still references a Maximum 200 PPM Sodium Nitrite and a Maximum of 500 PPM Sodium Nitrate in smoked seafood products.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfCFR/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=172.175
.
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Pedro7
Full Fledged Farker
Question then. Does the weight/amount of meat in that gallon of water matter? Or, is that 1 tsp. enough to cure anything brining in that gallon whether it be 3lbs of brisket or 6?
Also, say you are wet brining 4lbs of brisket. There is no difference if you used 1 tsp. in 1 gallon of water or 1.5 teaspoons in 1.5 gallons of water to brine the same piece of meat, correct? As long as you keep that ratio to 1tsp/gallon you should be ok? Or, should you still only use the 1tsp in the 1.5 gallons because thats what 4lbs of meat calls for.
I guess my overall question is this: In a wet brine, do we go by weight of the meat to decide how much pink salt to use or ratio in the solution?
