Proposed pork rule change

Ron_L said:

The new rule as proposed doesn’t say that.

Loin back country style would be excluded, but sliced bone in shoulder country ribs, or even pork steaks would be fine as I read it.

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Oops again.... :doh: Not thinking pork.... quoting ribs.

gettinbasted said:

Absolutely 100% false, I’ll cook a 4 pound pork collar (aka CT butt) this weekend to prove it.

I talked to the board member in charge of the rep committee about this very subject on Saturday at a contest. There are zero current rep advisories in effect for pork.

I am fully aware of the current rules. You’d think judges should hold themselves to the same standards.

Please email the board and get up to speed before spreading more misinformation.

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" There are zero current rep advisories in effect for pork."
Again, from the 2021 Rep advisory:

4.10 Pork Collar
Question: Is the cut known as “pork collar” a legal cut for purposes of entry in a KCBS contest?
Opinion: No. Rule 10 states:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic, and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four(4) pounds. After trimming pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out); however, once
cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook’s discretion.
The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or
without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork. Therefore, pork collar is not an acceptable cut to be approved at meat inspection or turned in for the purposes of competition under the rules of
KCBS. In the event a pork collar cut is turned in it shall receive a score of 1 by all judges in all criteria as a foreign object being a non-approved cut of meat.
BOD February 11, 2011; Updated April 2019 with 2014 Pork rule

Say what you will, but there is the advisory from 2021 and the Rep corp is bound to administer them as rules because they are current rule.
Ralph Williams told you there are no Rep advisories for pork?
Ed

Ed, you are wrong. I have discussed this with multiple board members. Please do the same before spreading false information.

The rep manual was redone by Rick Wagner without the pork advisories. Regardless of what was done (incorrectly) in the past, advisories are no longer used to attempt to modify rules because they aren’t rules.

Collar, if 4 pounds and from the shoulder as a CT Butt like SRF and Prairie Fresh is a legal cut in KCBS.

If the new rule passes tomorrow at the BOD Meeting, is it expected to go in effect immediately?

Pappy Q said:

If the new rule passes tomorrow at the BOD Meeting, is it expected to go in effect immediately?

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"I think" new rules only go into effect in November, so it will wait till then, or maybe become a Rep Advisory!!!!
Ed

gettinbasted said:

Ed, you are wrong. I have discussed this with multiple board members. Please do the same before spreading false information.

The rep manual was redone by Rick Wagner without the pork advisories. Regardless of what was done (incorrectly) in the past, advisories are no longer used to attempt to modify rules because they aren’t rules.

Collar, if 4 pounds and from the shoulder as a CT Butt like SRF and Prairie Fresh is a legal cut in KCBS.

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Your words are not backed up by written rules, that I can see, (no access to current Rep Manual).
So your going to cook a 4 lb. pork collar this weekend? Want to make known which contest your going to be at?
Ed

ModelMaker said:

Your words are not backed up by written rules, that I can see, (no access to current Rep Manual).
So your going to cook a 4 lb. pork collar this weekend? Want to make known which contest your going to be at?
Ed

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My words are backed up by the written rules that they hand out and play at every single contest. I’ll be in Dodge City with a cooler full of Prairie Fresh CT Butts/collars.

You know what? I'm tapping out on this whole collar/cellar cut discussion. The more I search for a solid written rule, the more I contact folks that should be "in the know" and people in charge of such things, the less a solid, absolute answer is available.

Years ago I asked these same people, BOD members, Rep members, Committee members what were their thoughts on garnish in appearance scoring. Honest to God, for everyone that said "garnish enhances the protein so is judgeable" there was another one that said "this is a meat contest, garnish is not to be scored", eventually a clear understandable rule was created for all to know and follow.
I expect that with the new pork rule a similar outcome (hopefully) will evolve.

So go cook your pork collar and move further up in the TOY, or run into a Rep that might disagree with you and collect a DQ.
I'm going back to just enjoying some tasty pork.
Ed

ModelMaker said:

You know what? I'm tapping out on this whole collar/cellar cut discussion. The more I search for a solid written rule, the more I contact folks that should be "in the know" and people in charge of such things, the less a solid, absolute answer is available.

Years ago I asked these same people, BOD members, Rep members, Committee members what were their thoughts on garnish in appearance scoring. Honest to God, for everyone that said "garnish enhances the protein so is judgeable" there was another one that said "this is a meat contest, garnish is not to be scored", eventually a clear understandable rule was created for all to know and follow.
I expect that with the new pork rule a similar outcome (hopefully) will evolve.

So go cook your pork collar and move further up in the TOY, or run into a Rep that might disagree with you and collect a DQ.
I'm going back to just enjoying some tasty pork.
Ed

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At last we agree. Here’s to clearly written rules.

ModelMaker said:

You know what? I'm tapping out on this whole collar/cellar cut discussion. The more I search for a solid written rule, the more I contact folks that should be "in the know" and people in charge of such things, the less a solid, absolute answer is available.

Years ago I asked these same people, BOD members, Rep members, Committee members what were their thoughts on garnish in appearance scoring. Honest to God, for everyone that said "garnish enhances the protein so is judgeable" there was another one that said "this is a meat contest, garnish is not to be scored", eventually a clear understandable rule was created for all to know and follow.
I expect that with the new pork rule a similar outcome (hopefully) will evolve.

So go cook your pork collar and move further up in the TOY, or run into a Rep that might disagree with you and collect a DQ.
I'm going back to just enjoying some tasty pork.
Ed

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This does bring up another interesting question. If I show up with my meat and a rep determines it’s not legal, what happens? Do I get a pre-DQ on Friday night? Do I just go get more meat? Do I get a sternly worded email? Do I call a BOD member to get a second opinion? As a member of the rules committee what are your thoughts on that?

gettinbasted said:

This does bring up another interesting question. If I show up with my meat and a rep determines it’s not legal, what happens? Do I get a pre-DQ on Friday night? Do I just go get more meat? Do I get a sternly worded email? Do I call a BOD member to get a second opinion? As a member of the rules committee what are your thoughts on that?

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No such thing as a pre-DQ, The sample has to be turned in.
Yes you can come up with different meat.
No such thing as a second opinion. Rule No.1 as always is the Rep in charges decision is final.
So the simple answer is contact the Rep have the discussion and what he says is golden.
Ed

Just out of curiosity, the rule says pork has to be cooked whole, but then can be separated and returned to the smoker. At what point are they defining "cooked?" Can you put it on an hour, pull it off and separate, then return to the cooker, or does it have to hit a certain temp?

I'm pretty sure KCBS follows USDA guideline of 145* with a 3 minute rest as "cooked".
Ed

ModelMaker said:

I'm pretty sure KCBS follows USDA guideline of 145* with a 3 minute rest as "cooked".
Ed

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So you could cook 3 or 4 butts to 145, pull the money muscle and just cook that part for turn in? Interesting. (I don't compete anymore, and did so very little when I did) Seems to me it would be a better test to have to cook the whole thing whole.

smokeisgood said:

So you could cook 3 or 4 butts to 145, pull the money muscle and just cook that part for turn in? Interesting. (I don't compete anymore, and did so very little when I did) Seems to me it would be a better test to have to cook the whole thing whole.

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Yes you could do that.
Hence the argument over what KCBS intended with cooking 2 large meats to show the cooks skills.
Ed

Interesting.

ModelMaker said:

No such thing as a pre-DQ, The sample has to be turned in.
Yes you can come up with different meat.
No such thing as a second opinion. Rule No.1 as always is the Rep in charges decision is final.
So the simple answer is contact the Rep have the discussion and what he says is golden.
Ed

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Just to be absolutely clear, these opinions are just that, my understanding of the rules as a KCBS member. Not to be considered as binding rulings.
Ed

ModelMaker said:

Just to be absolutely clear, these opinions are just that, my understanding of the rules as a KCBS member. Not to be considered as binding rulings.
Ed

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Understood. I’m with you. Nobody can state the rules with any certainty, but we all have opinions. It looks like things will clear up on November 1st.

On a side note. Once the label comes off a CT Butt (collar) is indistinguishable from a trimmed down boneless butt. It would be hard to make a DQ call in the tent when it’s all semantics.

OK one last point, I almost promise!
Last night at the KCBS BOD meeting the wording of the new pork rule definition passed.
It will be included in the 2022 rules effective 11/1/21. Also the Rep. advisory will be rescinded to include pork collar, (aka cellar) also effective 11/1/21.
There's your clarity you wanted for next year. The rest of this year your on your own.
Ed

ModelMaker said:

OK one last point, I almost promise!
Last night at the KCBS BOD meeting the wording of the new pork rule definition passed.
It will be included in the 2022 rules effective 11/1/21. Also the Rep. advisory will be rescinded to include pork collar, (aka cellar) also effective 11/1/21.
There's your clarity you wanted for next year. The rest of this year your on your own.
Ed

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I sure hope you’re kidding and the word “collar” is nowhere near the new rule.

A collar is not a defined cut of pork to make illegal or legal, so if they did that last night they didn’t fix a thing. It’s a completely arbitrarily applied marketing term. Might as well say that I can cook something labeled “doohickey” or “chunckleberry” It has the exact same amount of meaning.

Only KCBS could screw up fixing one poorly worded rule with another poorly worded rule.