Food Safety Question

[Juggy D Beerman]

I am interested in everyone's opinion on an issue I faced yesterday.

Here is a little background on the issue. After all the various deer seasons are over in Missouri, me and two of my buddies pool the deer trimmings from the muscles that won't make roasts. In the past 15 years of doing this we have had any where between 100 to 200 pounds of trimming and beef/pork fats to make ground burger. We go with a total of 80% venison, 10% beef fat and 10% pork fat. I add what ever bacon trimmings I have from the previous year to the mix.

So here is the question. One of my buddies was given a large amount of trimmings and some roasts from one of his friends. He received the meat last Sunday. Yesterday, I stopped by one of my grinding partners house to finish prepping the meat for freezing until grinding day arrives. Instead of putting the meat in the refrigerator, he kept the meat in the (clean) trash bag it was placed in. He said he kept adding ice to the cooler and drained the bloody water every day. When I looked at the meat that was in the cooler, the meat had no color to it. It was almost white! (Keep in mind I am extremely colorblind.)

I told my friend that we could not use this meat for grinding as it had been in cooler water for over three days. I did not trust using this meat as it was going to be ground and I did not want to risk contaminating the rest of the meat that we were going to use. My buddy said he had been doing this for years with his roasts and had no issues with eating meat such as this. I replied he had been doing it wrong for years and it is a wonder he had not made himself or someone else sick. He went through the bag and removed the roasts that still needed more trimming and kept them. I took the trimmings and took them to the trash. Right now, he is not happy with me nor am I happy with him. I informed the donor of the meat what happened and he is not happy with our mutual friend either.

The hunter said he often will soak his roasts in water overnight, but he does it in a clean container that is placed in the refrigerator. He was of the opinion that cooler water soaked meat was not fit for human consumption. So what say ye, my fellow readers? Would you have used this meat for grinding purposes?

Thanks in advance to all who reply, Juggy D Beerman

 

[4ever3]

I’m with you Juggy

No, no, and NO!

If I were the hunter, I wouldn’t be happy either

 

[PitRow]

I'm no expert but as long as he kept ice on it, I'd be ok with it.

 

[Big George's BBQ]

I am no expert but it sounds like it should be tossed. People have kept turkeys on ice while brining but the color you described would make me squeamish

 

[Juggy D Beerman]

I'm no expert but as long as he kept ice on it, I'd be ok with it.

Mike, The issue I had was not the temperature of the meat as the temperature was below 40F. The issue I had was that the meat had been soaking in water in the cooler from melted ice. I did not know if the cooler had been cleaned properly before storing food in it. If the meat had been bagged in sealed baggies, this would not have been an issue. The trash bag had a lot of water in it and the water was not bloody. My buddy said the drained the water ever time he added ice and that is why the water in the bag looked "clean". The meat looked like it had been blanched.

 

[SweetHeatBBQnSC]

So, I have no clue if he had cleaned the cooler out so in regard to that I can't speak.

The process your friends uses is the same exact way my father keeps his deer before he processes them. He doesn't even put his in a bag of any sort. Now he cleans and sterilizes the cooler and all that good stuff, but he leaves the meat in ice water to get some of the blood and gaminess out of the meat.

With that said---everybody is different with how they are concerned with cleanliness so that is up to the individual.

 

[Juggy D Beerman]

So, I have no clue if he had cleaned the cooler out so in regard to that I can't speak.

The process your friends uses is the same exact way my father keeps his deer before he processes them. He doesn't even put his in a bag of any sort. Now he cleans and sterilizes the cooler and all that good stuff, but he leaves the meat in ice water to get some of the blood and gaminess out of the meat.

With that said---everybody is different with how they are concerned with cleanliness so that is up to the individual.

Yo Joedy, I do not have an issue with how your dad does it as it sounds safe to me. In my case, I did not know if the cooler had been sterilized or if it had been holding beer/soda cans before the meat was placed in the cooler without sterilizing before it was used for storing raw meats. I don't have an issue either with soaking meat in water to remove any blood or gaminess out of the meat, but I do find almost four days of soaking a bit excessive. I am guessing there was not much flavor left to the meat.

Bottom line is, this meat was being used for grinding purposes and if there is any bacteria or contaminates on the exterior of the meat, once ground those bad little critters are now every where in the meat.

I guess what I could have done was to let my buddy finish prepping the meat for grinding. Then he could have added his own fats to his mix and used the grinder after we had ground the meat we knew was safe. Oh well hind sight is 20/20..........

 

[thirdeye]

One of my buddies was given a large amount of trimmings and some roasts from one of his friends. He received the meat last Sunday. Yesterday, I stopped by one of my grinding partners house to finish prepping the meat for freezing until grinding day arrives. Instead of putting the meat in the refrigerator, he kept the meat in the (clean) trash bag it was placed in. He said he kept adding ice to the cooler and drained the bloody water every day. When I looked at the meat that was in the cooler, the meat had no color to it. It was almost white!

If the trim was in a plastic bag, how did the cooler water get bloody? Myoglobin is red too. I agree the washout of color would be concerning to me too.

For some reason people tend to bend the food safety rules when it comes to wild game, and the standard line is something like "I've always done it this way and nobody has ever gotten sick".

Stew meat and trim run a higher risk of bacteria contamination than whole muscle meats like roasts or backstraps because there is much more surface area and some people don't clean their knives often enough. So, if your procedure is to do a group grinding weekend, then your buddy should have kept the trimmings at or below 38° and cleaned up the trimmings within 3 or 4 days and get it into the freezer.

 

[Stingerhook]

Not for me.

 

[Iroquois]

YOU made the right decision in this case for YOU. If I'm not present to ensure that food safety requirements were met, (in this situation), I would have done the same thing. As far as the friendship goes, TBD.

 

[jrTheSmoker]

As mentioned above, when we kill a deer we put it in a cooler with ice for several days. The key is to put a lot of ice down on the cleaned and washed thoroughly, cooler floor. The heat of the meat doesn't let it set on the bottom. We then put the meat in with space in between and put more ice between each layer. We then leave the drain plug open and put a small 2x4 or other block under the opposite end of the cooler, so no water sets on the meat.

When kept full of ice every day, the ice will melt and (some say but I don't notice) drain some of the game taste (along with any leftover hair or bone that didn't wash off before going into the cooler), and the meat will be gray to white. however, it will not smell bad, and when cut open (i.e. backstrap to make into kabobs), the interior will still be red, and only about 1/8"-1/4" or so of the outside will change color.

We do this to not be up so late and can cut up a bit at a time after work during the week and cook every other night.

If I didn't know what someone else did to a cooler or how it was kept, and if it was in water, I would toss it. It sucks majorly, but better safe than sorry. I've had bad venison sausage before where what you described happened, and I stayed sick with nausea and upset stomach for several days after we ate some. I threw the rest in the trash that they gave me.

 

[SmokinAussie]

I'm extremely liberal with food safety as most of you know because I apply science rather than fear mongering and the "when in doubt, throw it out" philosophy.

But this has disaster written all over it. White blanched meat already in trimmings, maybe insufficiently cooled and blanched in water that may not necessarily be 100% clean and certainly not sterile. Like Thirdeye said, then there is knives, utentils etc etc. How clean was the tub?

You did the right thing. Too many variables.

Cheers!

Bill

 

[Juggy D Beerman]

Bill, I am glad you posted on this issue as your views are more liberal than mine. Nothing wrong with that and I respect your opinion even when I did not agree with you. I knew if you would not trust the meat, I know I would not have trusted it either. There were too many variables involved that could have tainted the meat. As to the degree of blanchness of the meat, the roasts may have been fine as they could have been trimmed as jrTheSmoker described above. The trimmings that were in the bag were between the size of a ping pong ball to a billiard ball. That meat was completely blanched all the way through. I trust the work and sanitation of the hunter. It was the cooler water I was afraid of. I had food poisoning once from eating food that had "marinated" in cooler water. Never again!


Thanks to everyone who replied! - Juggy

 

[PitRow]

Mike, The issue I had was not the temperature of the meat as the temperature was below 40F. The issue I had was that the meat had been soaking in water in the cooler from melted ice. I did not know if the cooler had been cleaned properly before storing food in it. If the meat had been bagged in sealed baggies, this would not have been an issue. The trash bag had a lot of water in it and the water was not bloody. My buddy said the drained the water ever time he added ice and that is why the water in the bag looked "clean". The meat looked like it had been blanched.

Ah... I guess I glossed over that part of it. I think I would be concerned as well.

 

[thirdeye]

There were too many variables involved that could have tainted the meat. I trust the work and sanitation of the hunter. It was the cooler water I was afraid of.

Thanks to everyone who replied! - Juggy

In the wide world of welding, metallurgy and weld testing, the term 'essential variable' is used to describe the allowable range of various steps or properties that are required in order to ensure the desired outcome.

When it comes to food safety, there are also essential variables that we must practice. Caring for wild game (including fish), home canning, curing hams & bacon, making sausage etc., are all good examples of very simple tasks that have distinct instructions associated with them. It's always a pleasure to make and share things like this knowing that people trust your handiwork.

During the Fall months does any kinfolk call you Juggy D Deerman?

 

[Juggy D Beerman]

Yo Wayne, Back 20 years ago, I would sign off my posts on Basso's forum using the handle Juggy B Deerman when I would makes comments on venison. I would be willing to bet that most people who say they don't like venison have sampled deer meat that was not properly taken care of after harvesting. In my area, proper cooling is the biggest problem with proper handling. Last week, I was skinning and quartering a deer in 80F ambient temperature. That process took two hours before I was able to place the wrapped quarters and back straps in ice. Three hours later, the meats were removed from the ice, unwrapped, and placed in a dedicated refrigerator for holding venison.

There are a lot more precautions to take when grinding meat for sausage or burgers. Any short cuts as to food safety can make you sick as the grinding process will further mix any bacteria or contaminants into the ground meats. As you posted earlier, there is a lot more surface area exposed with the trimmings used for grinding. This is one of the reasons why ground meats are recommended to be cooked to a minimum internal temperature to 160F. Our crew has been doing this annual grind for over ten years. Everyone knows the drill and we are extremely food safe when we grind. We give a lot of burger away and our friends trust our product.

Some of what I posted I what not directed at you, Wayne. I posted the information for readers who may not be as informed as you are. Thanks for your replies.

Deers to you,

Juggy B Deerman

 

[Bob O Q Shawtee]

I once lived near several thousand acres of public hunting land in Texas. 80F is not unusual during deer season and deer killed opening morning would hang in trees for 2-3 days until hunters went home. People that say they tried venison and it wasn't good probably had spoiled meat. I've used ice but prefer dry refrigeration 3-5 days before processing and freezing. I'll lay even odds on blind taste test between lean beef and properly handled venison. Extra precaution with ground meat of any kind and cooked well done is advised.