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Unread 09-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #1
Ponty56
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Brethren,

I have my own sauce that i have been using at a local backyard bbq that is doing fair. I would like to try and take it to the next level as this is a sauce i would like to try and bottle some day in the future. It has some commercial products in it such as ketchup apple juice apple cider apple butter mustard and also a commercial rub. The base is ketchup and id like some pointers on how to take the next step in taking the ketchup out and making it more of a tomato base. Now i know there are specific seasonings in the Ketchup so it is going to change the way the sauce tastes. This is completely understandable and i know that im going to have to do allot to start refining. So what do you suggest i do as to making a tomato base?

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Jake.
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Unread 09-15-2013, 07:34 PM   #2
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my recommendation is to start w/tomato sauce(preferably one w/o sugar or salt added) then add your spices/sweeteners..etc. I make my own sauces always. when i'm feeling lazy, i'll doctor up a cheap bottle of whatever. but, for best flavor(imo), go w/plain tomato sauce as your base and work up from there.

since you're wanting to break into the market, imo, you want to be different. don't be "a variation of x"..be "the newer better thing". set yourself apart.

while this is just my opinion, I do wish you luck however you decide to pursue it.
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Unread 09-15-2013, 07:41 PM   #3
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I'm not a BBQ sauce kind of guy, but I am Italian, and San Marzano tomatoes are the best, sweetest tomatoes on the planet. Ditch the ketchup, and load up on San Marzano tomatoes, that you can get by the case at COSTCO. Use "made with San Marzano tomatoes" in your advertising.

Google San Marzano tomatoes. They are grown in volcanic soil, at the base of a volcano. The story alone is a marketers dream. The fact that they taste great is a big bonus.

The big obstacle we have here in America is that almost all of the tomatoes grown here are grown in places that tomatoes should NEVER be grown. Florida is like first or second for tomato growing, and the soil in Florida is all wrong for growing tomatoes. Florida tomatoes taste like cardboard. That means that ketchup is mostly made from Florida tomatoes. Crap in, crap out. You have to add all kinds of unnecessary stuff to make the ketchup edible.

BTW, a lot of really good stuff is grown in Florida, but not tomatoes. I'm not bashing Florida, just the tomatoes grown there. The weather conditions are good for commercial tomato growing, but not the soil.

Seriously, try using top-of-the-line tomatoes, like San Marzano tomatoes. With good, sweet tomatoes, you won't need ketchup. Good tomatoes run through a blender taste way better than ketchup -- sweeter too.

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Unread 09-15-2013, 07:53 PM   #4
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my recipe is for a large quantity how many tomato's does to take to make roughly 300oz?
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Unread 09-16-2013, 12:40 PM   #5
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Bump,

Would i want to puree with the skin on the tomato or do i skin them? could i pre cold smoke the skinned tomatoes for some added flavor before the puree?
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Unread 09-16-2013, 03:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponty56 View Post

Would i want to puree with the skin on the tomato or do i skin them? could i pre cold smoke the skinned tomatoes for some added flavor before the puree?
You are only limited to what does your recipe call for??? or however you wish to adjust it.

for making puree and separating seeds and skins can be done with this...

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Unread 09-16-2013, 03:27 PM   #7
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In terms of bottling, it is actually not at all unusual to make a produst with a commercial clone of a consumer product such as ketchup. However, the use of things such as ketchup, mustard, butter and even simple staples such as vinegar are all elements of production bottling that end up being changed.

A good example of this, is that water is often the first ingredient in a sauce recipe for commercial bottling, this is not because it is a filler, it is because commercial vinegar is much higher in acidity than househole vinegar, and the water needs to be added to balance the acidity. In the same way, tomato paste, mustard powder etc...is all much more concentrated for bottling, than what we buy at the store. Although I am a huge advocate of not using retail preparations to make your sauce, simply because you do not control the flavors then, the adjustments you are thinking of making, will be redone again, once you get a copacker.

Home made ketchup, which is what I would do, it nothing more than tomato sauce, tomato paste and spices. The spice most folks miss with ketchup is mace. Mace, nutmeg, clove and allspice are dominant players in most ketchups, along with salt and white pepper.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 03:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landarc View Post
In terms of bottling, it is actually not at all unusual to make a produst with a commercial clone of a consumer product such as ketchup. However, the use of things such as ketchup, mustard, butter and even simple staples such as vinegar are all elements of production bottling that end up being changed.

A good example of this, is that water is often the first ingredient in a sauce recipe for commercial bottling, this is not because it is a filler, it is because commercial vinegar is much higher in acidity than househole vinegar, and the water needs to be added to balance the acidity. In the same way, tomato paste, mustard powder etc...is all much more concentrated for bottling, than what we buy at the store. Although I am a huge advocate of not using retail preparations to make your sauce, simply because you do not control the flavors then, the adjustments you are thinking of making, will be redone again, once you get a copacker.

Home made ketchup, which is what I would do, it nothing more than tomato sauce, tomato paste and spices. The spice most folks miss with ketchup is mace. Mace, nutmeg, clove and allspice are dominant players in most ketchups, along with salt and white pepper.
Making your own ketchup was going to be my suggestion as well. Ketchup does make the perfect base for a sauce and by making your own you can control what goes into it and change the flavor to better suit what you're looking for.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 04:39 PM   #9
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Good thread, coupla' few very good suggestions- thanks Brethren!!
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Unread 09-16-2013, 04:53 PM   #10
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I'm bashing Florida. It sucks.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 07:02 PM   #11
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all great info, so as for the cider and apple juice that is all ok and the copacker will make those changes? I am fine with the ketchup base but i would like to move more to a tomato base as the ketchup flavor in this recipe is to overpowering.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 07:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponty56 View Post
all great info, so as for the cider and apple juice that is all ok and the copacker will make those changes? I am fine with the ketchup base but i would like to move more to a tomato base as the ketchup flavor in this recipe is to overpowering.
it will take some time, effort and some $$. but try talking to your bottler/copacker about your wishes and see if ya'll can come up w/a solution that gets you the repeatable flavor you want.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbill View Post
it will take some time, effort and some $$. but try talking to your bottler/copacker about your wishes and see if ya'll can come up w/a solution that gets you the repeatable flavor you want.
im not quite talking with a copacker yet but id like to get it better before i spend the $$ to get it in a bottle some tomato base with good tomatoes and a family homemade apple butter and apple sauce and a good homemade mustard i want to take this to the next level first.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 10:38 PM   #14
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We make and bottle (one by one) our own sauce.

I will tell you this much...
Ketchup is a "staple", and yes, we use it.
Our sauce tastes nothing like "ketchup".

Finished, our sauce is only about 1/8 ketchup.
Should we ever "step up" and get a co-packer, they will easily be able to reproduce our sauce.

We don't use any ingredients that are not "staples".
Don't have to depend on (or pay the price of) "commercial products".
Not sure what you mean by that, but, we stick to basics.
A co-packer could reproduce what we do easily (with no cost surprises).

Also, make no mistake, the bottles/caps/shrink-wrap/labels are expensive.
Doesn't matter if you do it yourself or have a co-packer.
Just sayin'... That which-what-ain't-sauce is a HUGE cost factor.

Awrighten.
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Unread 09-16-2013, 10:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal4UK View Post
We make and bottle (one by one) our own sauce.

I will tell you this much...
Ketchup is a "staple", and yes, we use it.
Our sauce tastes nothing like "ketchup".

Finished, our sauce is only about 1/8 ketchup.
Should we ever "step up" and get a co-packer, they will easily be able to reproduce our sauce.

We don't use any ingredients that are not "staples".
Don't have to depend on (or pay the price of) "commercial products".
Not sure what you mean by that, but, we stick to basics.
A co-packer could reproduce what we do easily (with no cost surprises).

Also, make no mistake, the bottles/caps/shrink-wrap/labels are expensive.
Doesn't matter if you do it yourself or have a co-packer.
Just sayin'... That which-what-ain't-sauce is a HUGE cost factor.

Awrighten.
I would have no problems with bottling my own and getting my own labels as well just not sure what i need to do to get to that step. Maybe i need to play with the ratios a bit but my sauce is more than an 1/8 ketchup. when i say commercial products i mean going to the grocery store and buying things like apple sauce and ketchup from heinz to using someone elses rub in my sauce. So i guess what im trying to say is shouldn't it be more of a homemade product from me before i go into bottling to sell. Things like cider and apple juice are things i cant just make but the other things that are in my recipe can be made easily such as the tomato base and other such ingredients.
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