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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 04-12-2013, 07:55 AM   #31
Smoke'n Ice
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The criteria for, and use of, comment cards is a “top down” initiative and no amount of discussion or debate at this level will ever change that.

Correct me if I am wrong, for I slept since then, but was there not a motion and debate at a BOD meeting regarding the comment cards and the final solution was, they will go away with the new score “program” which does not have the ability to get out of its own way.

There are more judges than cooks so is this "By design?"
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Unread 04-12-2013, 08:17 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bignburlyman View Post
Don't forget though that the new KSBScore program may not even be able to deal with comment cards, unless they get a method worked out to match up the cards with the correct teams.
Yep, they are gone with the new system. It won't even be an option. They will, however, have the means to track a judges performance. I doubt it will get used, but the data will be there.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 08:59 AM   #33
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Here's my problem with tracking a judge's performance. They would have to evaluate the judge against all tables they have judged to see if they are actually a statistical outlier. I doubt that any one in KCBS could handle the stats for that. (You could use the I/O psychology program at MSU to do it)

The entire beauty of the current program is that you have the "samples" of judges that resemble randomness. Sure you have some systematic variance and some silos, but it is better than medical "random samples".

If they start a BBQ inquisition, they may rid the system of GOOD variance. Believe it or not a LOT of these scores that are all over the place are accurate and would hold true if the same sample was provided to a larger audience. Is that not the point, to give an accurate score?
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Unread 04-12-2013, 11:47 AM   #34
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If judges were to be tracked, they might get some feedback on their performance. You know, kind of like the way the judges give cooks feedback on their performance.

Cooks use the constructive feedback they get from judges to improve the quality of their cooking so it would stand to reason that judges could use the constructive feedback they get from tracking to improve the quality of their judging.

So, tell me, how is this a bad thing?
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Unread 04-12-2013, 01:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince RnQ View Post
If judges were to be tracked, they might get some feedback on their performance. You know, kind of like the way the judges give cooks feedback on their performance.

Cooks use the constructive feedback they get from judges to improve the quality of their cooking so it would stand to reason that judges could use the constructive feedback they get from tracking to improve the quality of their judging.

So, tell me, how is this a bad thing?
I assume you are directing this to me. I really thought I did explain it.

The question is calibration vs. Systemic bounding.

Do you really think that judge 6 does not know what they are doing?
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Unread 04-12-2013, 01:49 PM   #36
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Let me give an example of why I think tracking is good...

We all know there are judges who scores entries consistently lower than every other judge at his/her table at every contest. Tracking will allow the organization to clearly identify this type of problem and do something about it. Retraining comes to mind as a possible corrective measure but there are certainly other steps. And, since judges can be tracked, those who have been identified as being well outside the norm, have been retrained, etc., their performance after corrective steps can also be tracked to see if the retraining, etc., made any difference. If not, well, now there are clear and well defined reasons for saying "Adios, Judge #6!".

Any tool, if used improperly, can result in abuse. That, however, should not prevent us from using tools at all.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 02:13 PM   #37
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I get what you are saying.

Question is do you want consistent scores or scores that best represent what the population thinks of your Que?

What punishment is fitting for some one who gives out 10.1% more nines? Retraining is punishment in lipstick.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 02:16 PM   #38
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Judges already operate in too narrow of a range of possible scores in my opinion. If we start to point out ones that don't it will get worse. Many judges will come in to eat, mark down an 8, and go home so they don't get labeled as a statistical outlier. This will make the current "3 point scoring" problem worse.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 03:18 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckelly View Post
IMHO, high remarks need not be commented on.
Anybody who's cooked in a comp more than once in his life should have a timeline, recipes or otherwise have documentation on what he did. If he does well, he'll know exactly what he did to acheive that.
Here's a situation from a GBA contest I judged recently. I had given 10's in both appearance & tenderness. I would have also given it a 10 in taste except it was submitted with sauce on the side & GBA rules require it to be judged with the sauce. Without the sauce, I would gave scored straight 10s. I wrote a comment card telling the team why I scored down in taste. After the judging was done, almost every judge at the table said they scored the entry down due to the sauce. So here was a pitmaster that got mostly 10s with a couple of 9s, who hopefully got some valuable feedback from the comment card I turned in.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 04:22 PM   #40
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The more I learn about "Certified" judges, the more I like the idea of judges who have not been "educated" in what is good BBQ. They have to decide for themselves.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 04:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg Father of Seoul View Post
I get what you are saying.

Question is do you want consistent scores or scores that best represent what the population thinks of your Que?

What punishment is fitting for some one who gives out 10.1% more nines? Retraining is punishment in lipstick.

I understand what you're driving and I agree that we don't want everything to be vanilla, so to speak. We need diversity in our judges just as we need diversity in our cooks.

I have seen a growing trend in the last few years where contests have the lowest scoring teams in each category averaging a score of 777 (140.000) or higher. How much sense does that make? Just as an example, the contest last weekend in Pleasant Hill, MO had 74 teams and only 4 entries out of the 296 possible were scored below the 140 point mark and one of those four was a DQ. So, 3 out of 295 entries were below the 140 point mark in a 74 team field. I think there were some mighty generous judges out there that day.

What I'm trying to say is that a judge who only uses a 7, 8 or 9 is just as bad as a judge who only uses a 5, 6 or 7. Both situations need to be addressed. By tracking, they can identify those who are always in the extreme and do something about it.

If you want to call retraining punishment in lipstick, that's OK with me. I think judges who are always at the extremes have no place in the sport and can dish out a form of punishment that has no lipstick to it at all. While judges do have some expenses involved in pursuing their passion, it doesn't compare to the expenses of the teams and everything that can possibly be done to have the best trained judges in the tent should be done.

Keep in mind that I am a CBJ as well as a cook and I think both deciplines take a lot of skill to master.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 04:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svenmac View Post
The best thing Kcbs could ever do is have all judges shadow a team and see how much $$$$ and time the cooks put into a contest.
This sentiment has been going around for as long as I can remember, and frankly it doesn't hold any water. What goes into preparing an entry is completely irrelevant to the judging processs. An entry is to be scored for how it performs in the three judging criteria, period.

It matters not if an entry took 100 years and a 100 billion dollars, or ten minutes and ten cents to get to the judges. Only Appearance, Taste and Texture matter by KCBS rules.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 07:32 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CivilWarBBQ View Post
This sentiment has been going around for as long as I can remember, and frankly it doesn't hold any water. What goes into preparing an entry is completely irrelevant to the judging processs. An entry is to be scored for how it performs in the three judging criteria, period.

It matters not if an entry took 100 years and a 100 billion dollars, or ten minutes and ten cents to get to the judges. Only Appearance, Taste and Texture matter by KCBS rules.

I know a number of judges who have cooked with a team as part of their Master CBJ requirement and every single one of them has said that they had no idea how much work teams put into getting that meat to the judging table. Their cooking experience has given them a better perspective and inspired them to be much more mindful of their responsibilities when judging. That's something very positive that can come from a judge cooking with a team.
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Unread 04-12-2013, 08:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince RnQ View Post
I know a number of judges who have cooked with a team as part of their Master CBJ requirement and every single one of them has said that they had no idea how much work teams put into getting that meat to the judging table. Their cooking experience has given them a better perspective and inspired them to be much more mindful of their responsibilities when judging. That's something very positive that can come from a judge cooking with a team.
Agreed. It won't and shouldn't change their judging criteria, but it could possibly correct their attitude about judging if they are too cavalier in scoring.

Last edited by Q-Dat; 04-12-2013 at 09:01 PM..
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Unread 04-12-2013, 09:51 PM   #45
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Sorry, but that still doesn't play. Empathy for the participant is not a requirement of a good judge. By that standard, you'd expect every courtroom judge to grow up in poverty and struggle with drug addiction before they'd be allowed to hear a criminal case.

Is understanding the role of the competition cook a positive thing that adds to the experience of the CBJ? Yes. Is it a requirement or guarantee of competency? No.
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