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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 12-07-2012, 12:15 AM   #1
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Default Thoughts from the Judges Advocate:

For those that have not read the article “Thoughts from the Judges Advocate”, by Dave Compton in the December edition of the Bullsheet, I would highly encourage you to take a few moments and read this article describing the actions of Judges, Table Captains, Organizers and Contest Reps. As a KCBS competitor, I was very disturbed by these revelations to say the least!
Considering the time, attention to detail and financial outlay that I put into a turn-in box, and then to think that a Judge, Table Captain, Organizer or Contest Rep is doing things with my turn-in box that could potentially cause me a low score or disqualification is beyond disturbing!
I'm not a top team and I don't get to compete in a ton of contest each year like some folks, but even if it's only one contest, it's still a lot of time and money invested.
A few highlights from the article:
Table Captain that opens the box, looks at the entry, then makes a face so that you know exactly what he thinks the appearance score should be on that box.
Or the one who shakes the box like it’s a present under the tree.
The Judge who takes multiple pieces of meat from a turn-in box while judging to stuff in his or her cooler to take home.
Talking on a cell phone, texting or taking photos with a cell phone while Judging is still in progress.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 02:00 AM   #2
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Hi,

Does this actually rise to the level of being a problem that should be seriously addressed? It seems to me to be a situation where you can't protect against idiocy and the occasions when this happens must be incredibly scarce.

I've never seen a table captain give visual clues to their opinion of a boxes appearance. I've never seen someone shake up a box. I've never seen people taking from the box to put in their cooler, but I can imagine that is more common than the other problems. Hopefully it's the sixth judge and they are taking extra (ie. enough to sample and then some for their cooler). I have seen people on the phone during judging, but not while they are judging. It's more that someone from table 3 is on the phone while table 5 is still actively judging. Still wrong though.

I also realize that the problems of regions vary greatly, so my perspective is coming from events in the NY area.

The majority of judges, table captains and reps take their job very seriously. I fully support their dedication and place in the competition community.

Problems should absolutely be addressed, but it's dangerous to overstate concerns.

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Unread 12-07-2012, 04:35 AM   #3
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Is The Bullsheet an official KCBS publication?

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Unread 12-07-2012, 06:11 AM   #4
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Is The Bullsheet an official KCBS publication?

Brian
Yes, monthly newspaper sent to all KCBS members.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 08:04 AM   #5
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I think the JA is pointing out the very rare, very worst case senarios in a attempt to make those of us that judge think a little bit.
Thinking is a good thing.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 08:09 AM   #6
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Make sure you read the next to last paragraph, also. He says, and I quote
"the vast majority of Judges and Table Captains are great folks who really enjoy what they are doing and try their best to do it well. By far, the average person in the “tent” does understand the Rules and wants everything to go just right." unquote.

Please don't let this turn into a judge, TC, Rep, and KCBS bashing thread! Does this crap happen? Sure. And I'll go out on a limb here and say that it probably always will. It will never go away as long as humans are involved.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 08:15 AM   #7
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seriously, who ever is putting together the bullsheet needs to exercise a little editorial control. Last month it a front page article about how the public that comes to bbq contests are mouth breathing idiots who are only there to bother the competition teams. This month it is an article about how the judges screw up your entry.

How about we leave the articles about the "dirty truths" in the circular file and publish articles about the positive things about competition bbq.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 09:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModelMaker View Post
I think the JA is pointing out the very rare, very worst case senarios in a attempt to make those of us that judge think a little bit.
Thinking is a good thing.
Ed
This about sums it up. If we are going to have a paper, it should at least serve a purpose beyond making us feel good about ourselves. I commend KCBS for running the article.

Does it ruffle some feathers? Sure it does. Should we all get our feathers ruffled from time to time? The truth hurts. We need to call attention to shortcomings and this is the best vehicle KCBS has to communicate with every single member of the organization.

Well done, KCBS.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #9
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Hats off to David for a good thought provoking article.
Sometimes those unthinking non verbal clues that just happen actually say a lot.
Everyone needs to be on their toes.

As Capt Table correctly says, read the last paragraphs that put the observations in perspective.

I know David as someone who works tirelessly to make judging better for all of us.
And bless him for doing that.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 06:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaQ View Post
For those that have not read the article
A few highlights from the article:
Table Captain that opens the box, looks at the entry, then makes a face so that you know exactly what he thinks the appearance score should be on that box.
Or the one who shakes the box like it’s a present under the tree.
The Judge who takes multiple pieces of meat from a turn-in box while judging to stuff in his or her cooler to take home.
Talking on a cell phone, texting or taking photos with a cell phone while Judging is still in progress.
I am a Certified Master Judge, have been judging for 10+ years, in 6 different states and I have never seen any of the above mentioned things happen even once.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 01:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawgPhan View Post
seriously, who ever is putting together the bullsheet needs to exercise a little editorial control. ....
...How about we leave the articles about the "dirty truths" in the circular file and publish articles about the positive things about competition bbq.
I'll disagree on this for a couple of reasons.

First & foremost, as I stated in the article, most judges, Table Captains, etc do their damnedest to do the best job possible. However, there are some who just might need to re-think what they are doing and I think that pointing out some of the most troubling things might do that.

Second, I'm hoping that by pointing out some of these problems that other judges / TCs will quietly let the offender know that what he's doing is wrong.

And finally, if some one is doing these things and thinks that it's perfectly okay then I don't really feel that we need or want that person involved in the judging part of competition BBQ.

Read the article again. Notice that I did my best to point out that these problems are not widespread - but they are still problems. Maybe some one will read that & think: "Dang - I've done that - I won't do it again".
If that happens then I've done what I tried to do.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie'48 View Post
I'll disagree on this for a couple of reasons.

First & foremost, as I stated in the article, most judges, Table Captains, etc do their damnedest to do the best job possible. However, there are some who just might need to re-think what they are doing and I think that pointing out some of the most troubling things might do that.

Second, I'm hoping that by pointing out some of these problems that other judges / TCs will quietly let the offender know that what he's doing is wrong.

And finally, if some one is doing these things and thinks that it's perfectly okay then I don't really feel that we need or want that person involved in the judging part of competition BBQ.

Read the article again. Notice that I did my best to point out that these problems are not widespread - but they are still problems. Maybe some one will read that & think: "Dang - I've done that - I won't do it again".
If that happens then I've done what I tried to do.

training judges should be done through the official classes. not articles in the bullsheet.

Secondly anecdotes are not data. Everyone loves to tell their war stories, but those stories are great for friday night, not so great for the official publication of competition bbq. We need to be presenting ourselves in the best light possible. If you gave the last two bullsheets to someone not in cometition bbq, I dont think they would think very highly of it. Last month the front page was people who attend contests are stupid, this months front page article is people who ask me about competition bbq are stupid. Inside this month's bullsheet is an article about all the horrible things that happen.

I dont doubt that your heart was in the right place, but KCBS needed to say no to that article and the last 2 front page articles. Competition BBQ needs to have a far more engaged public at these contests, we need their money and articles about how stupid they are, or how horrible the process is, isnt helping.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 10:55 AM   #13
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I don't think sugar coating it is the answer either. Let's face it, the Bullsheet is a LOT of ads and a little bit of "stories". There are hardly recaps of events, unless its the Great American BBQ Tour. Things do happen in the judging tent, not often, but, it happens. Addressing it is better than the alternative.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 11:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawgPhan View Post
training judges should be done through the official classes. not articles in the bullsheet.

Secondly anecdotes are not data. Everyone loves to tell their war stories, but those stories are great for friday night, not so great for the official publication of competition bbq. We need to be presenting ourselves in the best light possible. If you gave the last two bullsheets to someone not in cometition bbq, I dont think they would think very highly of it. Last month the front page was people who attend contests are stupid, this months front page article is people who ask me about competition bbq are stupid. Inside this month's bullsheet is an article about all the horrible things that happen.

I dont doubt that your heart was in the right place, but KCBS needed to say no to that article and the last 2 front page articles. Competition BBQ needs to have a far more engaged public at these contests, we need their money and articles about how stupid they are, or how horrible the process is, isnt helping.
I think you are only taking the worst two points of both articles and blowing them up. There is a lot more fiber in the articles if you keep an open mind.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 12:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
I don't think sugar coating it is the answer either. Let's face it, the Bullsheet is a LOT of ads and a little bit of "stories". There are hardly recaps of events, unless its the Great American BBQ Tour. Things do happen in the judging tent, not often, but, it happens. Addressing it is better than the alternative.

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