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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 11-10-2005, 05:50 PM   #31
kcpellethead
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I did not read every response here. I tried to, but damn you guys are serious about this topic (read Ė long winded), so forgive me if I duplicate somebody elseís answers or ideas. Iím excited that this topic has created such interest and discussion, because I believe itís all about making competition barbecue better.

First off, every situation is unique. A couple things that make Philís experience different from others is wearing a logo that is common to a couple teams and prepping & cooking in a contest site. I realize it wasnít either teamís actual logo, but two teams where flying these logos. I am a firm believer that perception is greater than reality. As cooks, we understand that judges make friends with teams. It happens quite frequently. Itís become common to see some judges out on Friday evening enjoying the camaraderie of the cook teams.

If a judge decides to hangout with one team on Friday night, they should use their best discretion in deciding when it might not be appropriate to be there. For example, when the team is prepping meat or putting meat on the cookers. It goes without saying that judges should not be involved in prepping or cooking in a teamís space. However innocent, if a team unfamiliar to the situation saw Phil prepping ribs on Friday night in a contest site and entering the judging tent on Saturday, I can see where they might express some concern.

For those of us that donít feel a judge in our camp on Friday evening is a problem, would it be different if it were three judges? How about six judges or even a dozen judges? If your answer is ďyes,Ē you should probably rethink your opinion on a single judge in your spot. We should all use our best judgment in these situations and try to see these situations in the eyes of an outsider.

Great dialogue!
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Unread 11-10-2005, 08:31 PM   #32
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I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 09:21 PM   #33
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KCpellethead's comment made me re-think my position, although I was somewhat on the fence leaning the opposite way in my first post... One judge may not seem like a big deal, but when you start talking about groups of three +, that's not fair and can definitely lead to finger pointing down the road.

I know think that hanging out on Friday's,meet and greet on Sat's before things get down to business etc are OK, but definitely no cooking, helping etc... mainly because of the perception it breeds, even it their is no merit to the true intention of the judge or team involved.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 11:12 PM   #34
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Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM
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Unread 11-11-2005, 07:47 AM   #35
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What's this about Phil wanting to pinch my butt!!
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Unread 11-11-2005, 08:43 AM   #36
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Don't we all?
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Unread 11-11-2005, 11:56 AM   #37
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Default Stumbled down this road once

I donít want to beat this one to death but I think this is very relevant! This was the first chance I have had to put this up.

Prior to my Smokiní Cracker BBQ Team I was involved with cooking some FBA contests with another team that was sponsored by a menís club/organization similar to the Brethren. The club is called The Good Ole Boys Supper Club in Sebring, Florida with approx 100 members. The competition cooking team consists of about 4-5 guys and we cooked at only a few FBA events in our surrounding areas as they still do. One of the members of the organization Jon Doe and his wife are certified KCBS & FBA judges. At one of the events we were competing at Jon Doe and his wife were scheduled to judge the event. Upon arriving at the contest mid morning on Saturday my friend Jon Doe & wife stopped by for a quick visit and was very careful not to loiter. During his brief visit the FBA rep visited us and she asked my friend not to judge the contest due to the fact he was wearing a Good ole Boys hat similar to the ones we were wearing and the perception was not good, as questions had arisen by others competing. His wife was permitted to judge. This man was not part of the competition cooking team but just a member of the club. Real Life Experience

Even after that experience. It never crossed my mind that Phil was in our camps or how others may have perceived his presence.
I think the Prime Rib juice blinded me.

Chew on that Farkers
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Unread 11-11-2005, 01:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kapndsl
Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM
Then it goes back to getting an answer from the KCBS people. I will do whatever we decide as a group since I don't want to upset anyone in the Brethren. If there are no rules about what judges can and can't do then I don't seeing them taking away a GC or a RC from someone because someone complained. To me it keeps going back to integrity. I always give people the benefit of the doubt to start.
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Unread 11-11-2005, 05:29 PM   #39
Solidkick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slat
I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.
Well stated, and exactly my thoughts! I knew there was a reason I liked you, Slat!
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Unread 11-11-2005, 06:39 PM   #40
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This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.
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Unread 11-12-2005, 07:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsm
This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.
That's if you "planned" to judge from the beginning.....sometimes, you're pressed into action, like myself and my wife, when you go to visit a comp. Thus, that's why you saw me in my Brethren hat and Beta Beta Que t shirt at Herman. We were there to support our brothers in smoke.
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Unread 11-13-2005, 06:55 PM   #42
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When an event doesn't have enough judges they pull them from where ever they can get them, whether you are a CBJ or not. I would rather have a guy sitting under the tent with a team hat or shirt on than someone who is sitting there dumbfounded. Chances are that person with a team hat or shirt on either knows how to Que or at least has a good understanding of it.
Who would you want to judge your Que. If I competed I would want the guy who is wearing the hat or shirt. I think he would be fairer than the dumbfounded person who is more than likely giving everybody 9's.
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Unread 11-13-2005, 07:41 PM   #43
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Slat, you are right on, as far as logical, thinking ADULTS go. Obviously, I would prefer some one who was apparently connected to the Q world to be in the judging tent.
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Unread 11-13-2005, 08:12 PM   #44
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A big difference between brother Kick and I are saying is that usually I go to a comp PLANNING on judging - if I can say HI to my friends and give them best wishes, that is a bonus - but Brother Kick went to the comp to see his brothers and perhaps share an adult beverage or two - then he was drafted. When he was with his pals he didn't know that he was going to judge, but I did know and I think the rules covering MY conduct should me more stringent then those on Brer Kick.
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Unread 11-13-2005, 08:45 PM   #45
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i have a couple of points to make but take into consideration that i have never been in a competition so if i go astray of what is right in the competition world please let me know.
as far as i know there are no KCBS rules against Phil's actions. in a gentlemans game all participants agree to the rules before entering and show trust in the integrity of the other participants actions throughout.
people need to know more about the bbq brethren! as far as i can see we are not exclusive. i dont see the reason for people to suspect a non exclusive group of cheating. in fact if a team really wanted to cheat couldn't they just work with a judge behind the scenes, and then just enter a competition simultaniously. also if folks knew that the brethren was a nationwide group whose members somewhat rarely get a chance to get together it might look suspicious if we don't hang out.
now if we did make a standard of conduct above and beyond the rules as a courtesy to other contestants and as not to draw uneeded suspicion to ourselves this would not be such a bad thing as any evolving group sometimes needs to govern itself.
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