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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 11-09-2005, 03:20 PM   #16
icemn62
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I don't cook in a competitive fashion unless you count being better than the last time I cooked. I was always under the impression that there is no way to tell who made what in the turn in box. I am going by the pics I have sen here and elsewhere on the net. To be honest, I could not tell a brisket slice made by spicewine, from Mistas, from the Poobah's unless the pic had captions.

If I were to go the competitive route, I would be offended to be cooking at a contest and later found out one of the brethren where there, and did not come by on Friday to at least say hi. I have only met in person, 3 other members from here, and I went home with the feeling we were friends.

I check this site hours per day and even if I don't agree with everything on the site, I think of all of you as my friends. If I got out and did the competing thing I would want to hang, drink some brews, share some food with any/all of you.

Now to the unenlighten BBQ'ers who are not yet Brethren, I can see where they can imagine some amiss about a judge hanging out with me before a contest. On the other hand, since there is no way he/she can pick whose meat he will be looking at, I don't see the problem. Sure I don't think a Brethren tee shirt should be worn in the judges tent during the judging. I but this is more to appease other people than make me happy.

Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

I agree that the fact this is something you are worried about means that you are in no way trying to cheat, or influence a contest.
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Unread 11-09-2005, 03:24 PM   #17
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Maybe a "policy" is too strong of a term, Tim. Maybe just the fact that we're discussing it here shows our integrity in this matter. I was just thinking of some sort of statement of position so that our brothers would have something to fall back on if an accusation was ever made. Something like "As a member of the BBQ Brethren, we are always reminded to... or encouraged to..." and follow that up with a statement of our own personal integrity. Maybe I'm thinking too much on this. Maybe just a good ol' "Don't ever question MY integrity" would suffice?
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Unread 11-09-2005, 03:34 PM   #18
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I've only been in three contests so far, Gary and no, I have no clue who judged my turn-ins. I don't think that it's possible because of the double blind system BUT... what prevents someone from telling a friend who is judging "If you see such-and-such, you'll know it's mine so score it high." Maybe there's 4-5 other entries that look that way but then all five get scored high if that judge sees them all. I also know the person who used to organize the extinct contest at Piper, Kansas. He said that it was common knowledge around there that judges could tell by the turn-in box who the big names were and thus score them higher if they picked them out.

My point is that in spite of the fact the judging is blind, there are always ways that cheating can take place. That alone makes it necessary to at least have some sort of personal plan of action when you're judging an event to avoid such accusations. I'd just err on the side of caution.
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Unread 11-09-2005, 03:48 PM   #19
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Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

Gary,
From my perspective only--no and no.
I really do not want to know, but that is just me

And, yes the blind judging takes most of the risk out of a "plant" in the judging tent.

Also, If you have 4 tables or more, one judge will only post one set of scores on one of the team's entries, even if they know who it is. If a judge goes "Hey, that is my Bud Herkimer's entry and gives it 9-9-9, even that will not pull a mediocore entry to the top. It might have a slight influence the rating for an quality entry that was scoring very well anyway, but that is about the extent of the damage.

All of this discussion is not really about screwing with the judging system or doing anything wrong. I am sure all judges call it the way they see it.

The real issue is the "message sent" when other teams can not tell the judges from the teams--perceptual problem.
Can make them wonder, and I understand that.

Good post.

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Unread 11-09-2005, 04:01 PM   #20
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As a spectator in Key Largo (and taster of some great food) I would have to say that if we go on pure perception and left out common sense then we do not have a lot of faith in the “Integrity” of the judges. I saw a group of people who did what they do for several reasons from Money to Prestige and deserve the ability to compete in a fair competition. If the judges are suspect then the problem is bigger than a first time judge catching crap for hanging with friends. I saw the same person delivering food to many non-Brethren competitors he could have just passed out the Exlax and been done with the competition it would have been a lot easer than rigging a vote. We cannot let the cheats and liars of the world win because those with integrity give up their rights just to appease a perception to those who are less than ethical may see a problem.



I am new to competitive BBQ and learned a lot from the Brethren and non-Brethren alike every one I talked with was amazingly friendly and willing to spend a few minutes of their time to talk BBQ. To meet Jimmie, Doug, Ray, Tim and many others was a great experience for me and I will spend a lot of time learning what I learned ( I know that sounds weird but I guess it is overload?) The biggest lesson I learned is all the competitors put their heart into the cooking and completion and I do not think one of them would cheat if they could.



All rambling aside if it is prohibited do not do it if it is not let integrity rule common sense tells me that at least in regions the competitors will soon know each other and will police themselves so the perceptions will not matter.



Neewbe watching and learning THANKS TO ALL WHO PUT UP WITH ME!
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Unread 11-09-2005, 04:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icemn62
Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

It would be difficult for a team to find out who judged them, but in my limited experience, AFTER judging, and at a smaller contest, one may be able to know they judged one or two competitors if they got a look at the scoresheet....unless you have a photographic memory, and considering i forget my name sometimes, i dont qualify.

A teams second number from the double blind tagging is on their scoresheet. You can look at that number and know if you got it in one of your 24 entries. After consuming up to 24 samples, over 2 hours, knowing which catagory and which entry would be a real streatch of my memory.



BTW.. heres achance for some gloating from u ladies... u know who you are..
http://www.kcbs.us/bbq_contest_resul...y_largo_fl.jsp


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Unread 11-09-2005, 06:19 PM   #22
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I'm new to the game, but it impresses me that you guys have put so much thought into it. Phil, you flew 1000+ miles to judge, but the real draw was to see your extended family (Brethren). You were cooking on borrowed equipment (not coaching), and you extended the offer to forgoe judging if anyone became concerned. No matter what you do, people will form their own oppinion, so all you can do is be as honest as possible, and do it with as much class as you can muster.

Looking at it from my personal perspective, although I want to win, I want to be judged accurately and honestly. If my turn-ins are bad, I want to know that they are bad, and vise-versa. If I win, I want to know that I won on my own merit! This is the only way that I can improve. The best judges of improper conduct would be Jimmy, Tim, Dave, and the others that were with you, as they were the ones who would be accused of any benefits. Anyway, the bottom line is try to show as much respect to the other competitors as possible, but that being said, if you don't have fun, then you will cease to contribute to this sport that we all love!
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Unread 11-09-2005, 07:58 PM   #23
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My take on this, unpopular as it may be, is to behave like a professional. If something you do, can be percieved as less than ethical, don't do it. These perceptions become reality as we are all human beings. If you wish to associate with anyone competing, do so after the judging is over and do it doscreetly. Just think of how your wife would feel, if at a company picnic you went off to shoot the breeze with a female co-worker and she saw you. It maybe very innocent, but her perception may prevent you from getting any for a month.
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Unread 11-09-2005, 08:30 PM   #24
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Wow...some serious BBQ for thought !!!. Valid points from everyone...

Based on my few months as a Brethen, I think this is a relative non-issue based on the nature of the group.This issue is much larger in scale, well beyond the Brethen and resides with the overall rules of KCBS.

BrooklynQ made a point that wifes & girlfriends, are often in the judges tent.... If there is room for judges who sleep and live with competitors, there surely has to be room for the Brethren to "hang out" for a little while. The Brethren exemplify everything that is right about competition BBQ folks. To me, this alone makes the debate needless especially given the fact that it's blind judging. It is nearly impossible to guarantee pefection to the rules in anything. Cheaters will always cheat in every sport and their will be some who will do whatever it takes to win.

A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.

Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?
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Unread 11-10-2005, 06:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilitantSquatter
Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?
Thanks good points and this quote gave me the best GRiN I have had in a while.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 08:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MilitantSquatter
A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.
I don't know if you realized it, but these contests are for cash prizes. The Grand Champion and Grand Reserve Champion both usually win a few large. I don't think this would be such a big deal if they were just competing for a trophy.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 08:33 AM   #27
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Hi Guys,
Sorry to be so late.
First off, let's not overreact. No one is saying a judge can't "interact" with a team on Friday. It's a long tradition to party on Friday and judges are welcome. Reps aren't allowed to drink at the event, but judges certainly are, and do all the time. Everyone is allowed to eat and visit with each other. To spend the whole evening in one teams camp might be inappropriate though, since they will have to be prepping for the contest at some point. Use your head, it's not that hard. I don't think KCBS has a solid stance on this. (Gee, what a surprise). Someone told Dave or Tim that the judges were free to do as they please on Friday. True. But.............

I don't think whoever said that was thinking that the judge would be cooking dinner in the teams camp. Maybe that's OK, since it was clearly appetizers and a prime rib, which had no place in this cookoff. I still think it was a questionable idea, since the teams spices, sauces and meat were all in close proximety to the cooking, and the teams pit was being used. One could easily have thought Phil was cooking with this team if they'd stopped for a visit. When Phil was prepping a pile of ribs in the team area at 8:00pm, it definitely looked wrong and that's when we talked about it.

I think Tim is on the right track. If you're coming to judge, do that. Hang out and visit on Friday, but don't plan to cook anything. If you want to cook, just pass on the judging the next day, you can still have fun and eat lots of BBQ. I don't think you should do both.

That's my opinion.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 08:58 AM   #28
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Excellent thread! I am a cook and a CBJ and here is an experience that hapened to me this year. I went to a contest to just hang out with a couple of teams on Friday and stick around for the awards to cheer them on. I even slept (well Ok passed out in a chair but thats another thread) under one of the team's tent. I had no intentions of judging.

Saturday morning the contest organizer asked if I would judge since he had 15 judges that were no shows. I told him I would and from that point forward I avoided the teams until after judging. I might also add that I did not help cook or offer advice to any of the teams.

Yes the judging is blind, however I knew a couple of these teams very well and have cooked with some of them or they have cooked with me in the past. I was very concerned that I might recognize an entry but didn't - until the brisket came around. As soon as they opened the very last brisket box I immediately recognized it. I thought about disqualifying myself but that would not have been fair to any other other competitors. I decided to continue judging and feel that I judged ALL of the entries as impartial as possible. The brisket I recognized was OK but not great and I judged it accordingly.

If this were to happen to me again I wold turn down the offer to judge - simply because of the negative perception that some people could have had. I think that if a Brother is judging that it is certainly acceptable (and EXPECTED) to stop buy other Brethern teams on Friday night and hang out - eat, drink and enjoy. However as soon as that team starts to prep their meat or otherwise get ready for the contest it is time to leave. Stop by on Saturday but only to shake hands and introduce yourself - don't hang out while the entries are being prepared. Several Brothers judged the Hermann, MO event this year that I cooked and all of them stoped by for an introduction. I would have loved to have them come in for a drink or two but one, I was busy, and two they were judges.

I think most of us can maintain our impartiality but as others have mentioned - perception is reality - at least in the eyes of the perceiver. I think there are some judges that have recognized an entry or two. The "no marking" tries to prevent that but as you become familiar with some of the teams you just know what their product looks like. Hopefully when this happens the entries are being judged fairly.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 03:16 PM   #29
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As Ray stated judges hanging out on Friday night it is done all the time. Judges cooking with the teams on Friday is not happening much and if someone wants to look for a reason to bitch it could give them a reason (real or not).

Judges are asked not to mix with the teams on Sat. Just recently an offical position was taken on telling judges who food it was they judged, it is not to be done.
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Unread 11-10-2005, 03:22 PM   #30
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Just so everyone understands what you're talking about Jim.
There has been kind of an unwritten rule, that if a judge asks a rep AFTER judging, whose food he had just eaten, the rep would tell them. What this created was regular judges getting very familiar with some regular cooks entries, and some of these judges even began boasting that they had judged team x or team y today. Then a rumor began that some judges were scoring team x or team y down, for whatever reason. Then the rumor changed that these judges were scoring team x or team y up, instead of down.
It was all bad for the system, and I commend the board for stopping it.
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