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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 10-19-2005, 06:10 PM   #16
Sawdustguy
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Ahhhhhh......That is the point precisely! The judge is guessing that the reason the brisket was pulled or chopped was because it was ill prepared. I just don't think that guessing should be part of the Judging process. If the texture (tenderness) and taste are good on what basis can he make this giant assumption? If he makes it based on the fact that it is chopped or pulled he is not acting in the spirit of fairness by taking a guess and not be allowed to judge.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 06:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustguy
Ahhhhhh......That is the point precisely! The judge is guessing that the reason the brisket was pulled or chopped was because it was ill prepared. I just don't think that guessing should be part of the Judging process.
I agree, but you read what Ed Roith (Dr. Death) said - and he is the guy in charge of training Judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustguy
If he makes it [the assumption that the brisket is overcooked] based on the fact that it is chopped or pulled he is not acting in the spirit of fairness by taking a guess and not be allowed to judge.
Although I agree with much of what you say, I think that "banning" a judge for following instructions is a bit much.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 07:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsm
I agree, but you read what Ed Roith (Dr. Death) said - and he is the guy in charge of training Judges.
Then maybe someone ought to point out the arguments made here to Mr. Roith. Doesn't necessarily make it right because he says it, does it? Or does it?
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Unread 10-19-2005, 07:47 PM   #19
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What if they changed the rules so when you signed up for the event you had to tell the KCBS people my chicken will be:
A) legs
B) thighs
C) Wings
My brisket will be:
A) sliced
B) Pulled

ETC ETC ETC


Quote:
Originally Posted by chad
OK, I give up.

Opinions are like *******s - and each of us has one (some full body) but the reality is that if you don't turnin sliced brisket you are cutting your throat.

You can blame the rules, blame the judges, blame KCBS but the fact remains that sliced brisket is what's expected in a turnin box. If you like tilting at windmills then go ahead and turn in chopped/pulled/chunked brisket. I just want to be in the same contest - I'm guaranteed a higher placing.

We've all had less than perfect brisket and turned in what we could. But bottom line is if you didn't cook a sliceable brisket you farked up.

And that's my *******, I mean opinion!
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Unread 10-19-2005, 07:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoker
What if they changed the rules so when you signed up for the event you had to tell the KCBS people my chicken will be:
A) legs
B) thighs
C) Wings
My brisket will be:
A) sliced
B) Pulled

ETC ETC ETC
Don't think that would work because if you're cooking a few different choices, maybe your plans change mid-stream and you're then hosed based on what you said at sign up. PLUS can you imagine the huge hassle in determining what every box was supposed to have in it from the sign up form?

I still agree that brisket SHOULD be sliced but I'm fine with someone who disagrees. If the rules say it's OK, it should be OK and judges shouldn't be taught that it isn't.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 07:53 PM   #21
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Here is a transcription of a BBQ Judging class given by Ed Roith:

http://new.cbbqa.com/judging/EdRoithCBJClass.html

He never says anything about pulled or chopped brisket being overcooked or undercooked or being improper for presentation at a contest. For that matter, all he says is 99% will be sliced. He also stresses the meat being judged on it's own merit or what he terms "Judge what you taste". I was surprised. From reading this thread, I thought he was going to dictate that pulled or chopped brisket was bad. That wasn't the case at all. He very much preaches fairness. He impressed me quite a bit.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 08:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustguy
Here is a transcription of a BBQ Judging class given by Ed Roith:

http://new.cbbqa.com/judging/EdRoithCBJClass.html

The web page was last Updated April 21, 2002
- the rules and/or the interpretation might have changed since then.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 08:19 PM   #23
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I don't think so because this transcription sounded verbatim as my judging class I took just last month.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 08:54 PM   #24
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heres what i think but remember i have never been in a competition or to a judging class. when they teach a judge they try to get them to identify the best possible product. pulling, chopping, thin slicing and thick slicing seem to be remedies for problems. granted, if it is legal it should be judged fairly in its turned in state, but the power of suggestion is very strong, so why turn in great brisket with a red flag on it and suggest to a judge that something may be wrong? the only way that you can turn in brisket with no indication of a fix-up seems to be medium width slices. having said this, what is the proper width to slice brisket? thanks.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 08:56 PM   #25
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proper width - at least the convential comp wisdom I've heard is the thickness of a pencil
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Unread 10-19-2005, 09:08 PM   #26
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Agreed. At the Grillkings competition I spoke to Murray Saltzman and thats what he said. I think that was also echoed at the judges class.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 09:08 PM   #27
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The goal is the thickness of a #2 pencil - which is a bit undefined, but with luck, you know what I mean - and some say if the beef is overcooked, then slices of that thickness will fall apart and if the beef is undercooked, then those slices will NOT pull apart and will be unchewable (is that a word?)

So we are told that thick slices are a sign of overcooking and thin slices are a sign of undercooking. I (who knows very little) suggest that you put it in your mouth and base your score on the feel of the meat in your mouth.

It is my PERSONAL opinion that a cook who can "rescue" an overcooked brisket and make it a pleasure to eat, is deserving of a prize.
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Unread 10-19-2005, 09:34 PM   #28
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We agree.....
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Unread 10-19-2005, 09:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsm
It is my PERSONAL opinion that a cook who can "rescue" an overcooked brisket and make it a pleasure to eat, is deserving of a prize.
Based upon my limited experience, I would not agree with this, Rich. I believe the true measurement of who deserves a prize is who cooks the brisket the best. This is a cooking contest, not a "masking" contest. If a brisket is overcooked, you, as the cook, didn't do your job correctly. It happened to us at DeSoto. We cooked two briskets. Brisket 1 was farking awesome... great flavor and beautiful smoke ring and very appealing with plenty of meat above the fat cap so as to leave a nice, wide slice after trimming the fat. However, we overcooked it. When we tried to actually move the slices we cut, the damned things fell apart. It was un-useable. While brisket #2 was not quite as flavorful, the smoke ring wasn't quite as deep and it was slightly less tender, we turned it in because the slices didn't fall apart. Still gave easily when tugged on to bite it. We could have chunked/shredded/pulled this first brisket but I was very doubtful about turning in like this. I haven't ever seen it done. My neighbor next door advised against using it so we scrapped it. I just don't have the sack to mask my failure and don't think that a cook who does have the sack to mask his error should be rewarded just because he was successful. He still failed at the primary objective of the contest. BUT, as I stated before, if you choose to pull or chunk your brisket at a contest, it should not be an indication or red flag to a judge that you're TRYING to hide something. Not sure if I made a lot of sense... Now that I read this, I feel like I'm typing in circles and not getting my point across!
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Unread 10-20-2005, 06:07 AM   #30
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Jeff, I understand you, and I think that our different viewpoint come from the fact that you are a competition cook and I am a backyard cook.

You are cooking to a specific (semi-specific??) set of requirements and I am looking to put a nice plate of food on the table.

I have to think about this some more (with more coffee) but I think you may be right and I may be wrong.
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