I Warm Brine Chicken... Call the Authorities

So I took the question to the AmazingRibs.com science advisor, Dr. Greg Blonder of Boston U. His reply:

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Common bacteria, like salmonella, are likely killed or disabled by 10% salt solutions, so a few hours of warm growth in a strong brine is not an issue for salmonella. There are some bacteria that shrug off high salt concentrations, but these are less common. And of course botulism not easily deterred by salt.

HOWEVER, it is wrong to think of meat’s interior as “sterile”. Wishful thinking. Bacterial counts are low, but not zero, and often meat is riddled with parasites. This is why raw tuna must be hard frozen before serving. And, meat contains more than muscle. For example, a pork butt is infiltrated by lymphatic nodes, and these are microbial filters and highways. Salmonella is routinely discovered in the lymph system. Chicken, if mass produced and mechanically gutted, is drenched in gut bacteria. Often the chicken parts are tumbled or injected for tenderness, this drives in microbes.

Now, is this likely a BIG issue? Probably not, at least for a couple of hours of warm salty marinading. But don’t confuse “probably” with “safe”. One day the stars will align the wrong way, and you will catch a roaring case of explosive diarrhea. And a young child might die. So I always cold marinate, and take a little more time.
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Meathead

^^^^ That's what I'm more worried about... The INSIDE

I really feel in this thread someone should preface a comment with "Take this worth a grain of salt"..........

All joking aside. Meathead, Thank you for all the information you've provided here. Really great stuff.

Take this with a grain of salt,,,

but,,

anybody that plays with borderline food safety should not be cooking and feeding other people.

Every now and then the bear needs to be poked to stimulate some conversation regarding topics that are deemed to be settled. I for one think the new adage that chicken should not be washed is highly flawed because if that were the case, then you should not wash your hands or utensils after handling it either (different topic). I love these threads because they do bring out some valid points on both sides.
I do not think what TedW is doing would be considered playing fast and loose with food safety, but it definitely resides outside of the FDA fridg magnet guide lines.
I will continue to wash my hands after handling chicken and try to be food safe, and will probably still get sick at least one more time in my life whether my fault or not.

:clap2:

Well i for one would like to thank Ted for forcing me to think for myself. Its so easy to just think with the status quo and not question things. Right or wrong if you truly read this thread and researched some for yourself things aren't as cut and dry/black and white as they seem at the surface....on both sides.

The bold question the establishment and more often than not are ridiculed by the masses but in the end sometimes they have the last laugh.

Heres to you TedW :tea:

Ted - If refrigeration is superfluous when the chicken is in a brine, would you let it sit in said brine at room temperature for 3-4 days and then cook and eat it? If not, why not?

John

TedW said:

Despite some well-meaning posts with "data" there's been nothing presented to show this as a risk. Plenty of opinions... no data. Data needs to be relevant to the topic, which it often wasn't.

We're talking chicken here, not pest-poppin' petulant pork posterior.

I'll bow outta this thread now. Nothing more to offer / discuss.

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I did a quick 1min re-scan on the posts and other than this link what data did you provide? I saw you use the word "data" a lot and referenced many times others "lack of data". You also used the term microbes a bunch which sounds very science'y. So other than that 1 link and a few random salt concentration posts and the term "microbes" tossed about I didn't see much backing "data" coming from you either Ted. I guess some random paraphrasing of science with no backing of the actual scientific research you are referencing in your paraphrasing counts??

Heck it even took you till post #46 actually give us that link to actual scientific data and to say.........

TedW said:

Some of us are not being very scientific. Some of us are connecting the dots so as to paint a picture that doesn't exist. Others are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

And some here think they're funny. You were prolly just as funny in science class.

Salmonella does NOT thrive in high saline. In a previous post someone misappropriated a comment that Salmonella likes salt. It tolerates about as much salt as is found in your intestine.

See http://aem.asm.org/content/77/5/1667.full Figure #2 We are dealing with a 1.37M solution of NaCl - way beyond the highest 1M NaCl levels represented in that graph.

Sooooo... there has still been zero science presented in this thread that would demonstrate a warm brine to be any worse of a health hazard than storing a chicken in a bag in the fridge. All data presented has shown the opposite.

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So you made a statement in your very first post (that had no supporting scientific data) and then simply put the onus on others to prove your statement wrong using data, but everyone else is wrong here? Maybe I'm missing something...........:loco:

I guess one could count the times you used the term "data" and compare it to actual data you provided, but that data ratio would be quite low. Even your last post you said "data" 3 times with no supporting data...........ok I've gone cross eyed :wacko::wacko:

Data?

We don't need no stinkin' data!:laugh:

This thread is going swimmingly.

PatAttack said:

Data?

We don't need no stinkin' data!:laugh:

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Seems like the older our country becomes, the more common sense we lose.:roll:

Only one way to settle this: real data. Ted needs to brine several chickens, one at his normal 4 hours, 1 overnight, 1 for 2 days, etc. Cook 'em up to 165 internal and save some for testing in a lab. Ted (and only Ted or other willing participants) then samples each and reports back after which chicken made him sick (if any) and the corresponding microbe/ bacteria levels as measured by the lab! Then we should have a good idea of safe levels (at least for Ted's stomach)... As for me, I wouldn't take a chance eating at Ted's house. Whether you're playing Russian roulette with a six shooter or thousand round clip, it's STILL Russian Roulette! Yeah, I'm conservative by nature as I'm an engineer but I see little benefit (juicier, more tender chicken) when balanced against what food science currently says are safe rules. If you ever have had food poisoning, you know what I'm talking about in the risk (not nothing) is not worth the reward.

I could really go for a nice warm cup of chicken broth right now.

I would have no problem eating Ted's chicken. I've eaten grade D beef before, there is such a thing. Labeled as fit for human consumption. If you have ever been in the military that is what they typically get. People don't die that easily.

PatAttack said:

Data?

We don't need no stinkin' data!:laugh:

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I literally laughed out loud :-D. :clap:

IamMadMan said:

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I think more on the minimum side though. That's more of the maximum version/picture.

Not related to chicken but i keep beef stock in a crockpot for days and freeze, thaw reheat, rinse and repeat. Everytime it get better and better. When it starts to run low i top it off with fresh beef stock. I still have a beef stock that is 3 years old. Taste amazing.

WareZdaBeef said:

Not related to chicken but i keep beef stock in a crockpot for days and freeze, thaw reheat, rinse and repeat. Everytime it get better and better. When it starts to run low i top it off with fresh beef stock. I still have a beef stock that is 3 years old. Taste amazing.

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But WareZyourData??

Oy, sorry for the bad joke.........:twitch:. Just saw your name and well :loco: