Cumming Duel

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MikeJ65

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Kind of surprised that nobody has started a thread on the Cumming Duel (two contests out of the same cook) rule variance approval. This will make Cumming a triple contest, with the first day being two boxes turned in at the same time for each category.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the decision for a few reasons:

1) I don't like rule changes that can impact TOY points made in mid-season. I was against the perfect score ruling for the same reason. No issue with that as a rule, just didn't think that is was proper to change the rules after the fact.

2) I don't think it is proper to offer double points chances off of a single cook, especially as an exception for one contest.

3) I'm not sure I want to see this as a trend across KCBS and I think other contests will adopt it to compete for the points chasing teams.
 
When I first heard about it my thoughts went to are they going to have two separate judging tents with two different sets of reps or just double the amount of judging tables? If it's two separate tents and reps I don't see the issue but if they just add more judges to the same site then I'm not in favour, for no reason in particular.

My personal issue with back to backs is it would suck hard to drop double contest worth of money into one weekend and get skunked, imagine paying for three contests and walking away with nothing, oh boy that would hurt.
 
kenthanson said:
When I first heard about it my thoughts went to are they going to have two separate judging tents with two different sets of reps or just double the amount of judging tables? If it's two separate tents and reps I don't see the issue but if they just add more judges to the same site then I'm not in favour, for no reason in particular.

My personal issue with back to backs is it would suck hard to drop double contest worth of money into one weekend and get skunked, imagine paying for three contests and walking away with nothing, oh boy that would hurt.
Click to expand...

Last year was the first out of the last 6 we didn't make it due to scheduling. Randall always does a great job at his events. Everything I've read is there are 2 completely separate areas for judging on Sat that day to make it legit of course.

Price for signup isn't up yet, but the overall for 3 will be less than 3 separate events more than likely since it's all in once place. Not many of these will be around so might be doing all 3, which at this point is triple the amount we've done so far this year :becky:
 
MikeJ65 said:
Kind of surprised that nobody has started a thread on the Cumming Duel (two contests out of the same cook) rule variance approval. This will make Cumming a triple contest, with the first day being two boxes turned in at the same time for each category.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the decision for a few reasons:

1) I don't like rule changes that can impact TOY points made in mid-season. I was against the perfect score ruling for the same reason. No issue with that as a rule, just didn't think that is was proper to change the rules after the fact.

2) I don't think it is proper to offer double points chances off of a single cook, especially as an exception for one contest.

3) I'm not sure I want to see this as a trend across KCBS and I think other contests will adopt it to compete for the points chasing teams.
Click to expand...

kenthanson said:
When I first heard about it my thoughts went to are they going to have two separate judging tents with two different sets of reps or just double the amount of judging tables? If it's two separate tents and reps I don't see the issue but if they just add more judges to the same site then I'm not in favour, for no reason in particular.

My personal issue with back to backs is it would suck hard to drop double contest worth of money into one weekend and get skunked, imagine paying for three contests and walking away with nothing, oh boy that would hurt.
Click to expand...
I'm excited about the idea of a triple and I'm looking forward to it but I do have a few questions:
I understand the variance for two contests on the same day was granted as far as toy points but what about the other rules?
If it's two sets of reps and two sets of judges, will there be two separate inspections?
Can you use the same meat for both inspections or does that compromise the independence of each contest?
If you can use the same meats for both Saturday contests then it's not really a double in my mind it's more like "running it twice" at a poker table although sending meat from the same brisket or the same cook in general to two sets of judges will create an interesting commentary on the state of judging.

I'm sure Randall will be along to offer us some more details shortly
 
It's an interesting idea... however, I don't really understand "variances" from the "rules."

The KCBS (and any sanctioning body for that matter) has RULES which have been approved and we all live by. If you want a "variance" to those rules, petition to have a rule changed or a new rule enacted.

I guess my definition of RULES is they are RULES and not guidelines.

Nordy
 
Seems to me that an average comp cook has no means, or very limited, to do three contests in a single weekend, looks like a short lived idea for point chasers. If they would go back to the 50 team max points you would never see a contest like this again.
 
It's all about the money....for KCBS that is.
Ed
 
Prices for the contests were posted last night, $700 for the triple, which really isn't bad. I'm pretty sure that Randall mentioned 2 separate tents with separate judges for the double. As far as 2 sets of meats, I'm not sure about that.
 
It is an interesting concept. As an organizer of a 60+ team comp in March, we've had a few teams ask if we would do a same-day double. So, we're going to poll our teams and if there is interest, we'll request the rule variance.

_______________________
Buckshot Malone's Pig Shack
Nashville, Tennessee
 
In 2009 there was a triple header in Fairfield Ca. Saturday was all 4 plus chicken & ribs. Sunday was all 4 plus pork & brisket. It was brutal.
 
MikeJ65 said:
1) I don't like rule changes that can impact TOY points made in mid-season. I was against the perfect score ruling for the same reason. No issue with that as a rule, just didn't think that is was proper to change the rules after the fact.
Click to expand...

I also think the rules shouldn't change mid-year, but in both of these cases it seems more of a clarification of the rules for a situation not anticipated.

The intent of the original "no contests on the same day" rule was to keep people from gaming the system by competing under the same name in two different contests at once. I don't see allowing this one as being against the spirit of the original rule as it's one team/head cook cooking in one place.

Same thing with the perfect perfect ties. It wasn't really anticipated that it would happen, and assigning points based on the alphabetical order of the team names is nonsensical. It should have at least been random, but that's not (as it was explained to me) how KCBScore works when it's a perfect perfect tie. [Full disclosure: I was one of the three pit masters involved, and my team name at the time was "ZBQ" which wasn't so great for an alphabetical tiebreaker. :becky: I was not, however, involved in bringing it to the board.] At least Ronnie Cates gave the tied teams the option to split the prize pool 3 ways before showing us the scores, which was a very fair thing to do.
 
CBQ said:
The intent of the original "no contests on the same day" rule was to keep people from gaming the system by competing under the same name in two different contests at once. I don't see allowing this one as being against the spirit of the original rule as it's one team/head cook cooking in one place.
Click to expand...

Of course, with KCBS a team is a head cook and whoever is cooking at my site that day. Let's say I'm a few points back for TOY and my buddy is another top cook, but out of the running. On Fri-Sat and he could cook on my site and turn in as my team in Contest 1. I would cook and turn-in for Contest 2. Sunday, he could go back to being head cook for his own team and we would compete against each other for Contest 3.

On the perfect perfect issue, the rules say ties are broken with computer draw. The board minutes show that they didn't know if SCORE used alphabetical order or if the order was actually a computer draw, but they changed the rule without investigating.
 
It is hard to imagine a more blatant example of how some have lost touch with what made the KCBS circuit successful in the first place.

Counterproposal: just abandon all the pretense and sell the TOY trophy directly to the highest bidder by auction.
 
I don't guess I understand how this helps the team of the year chasers. Are there any casual teams that just do a few contests here and there that are currently in the top 10?
The top teams go to one state and win and then another state the next weekend and do the same thing. If they have the resources to do this more power to them, just as if they have the resources to do two comps at once. The reality is that teams that can't pull this off weren't going to win team of the year anyway and the teams that can will be in contention with or without it.
That being said I think things would be a lot more interesting if points were calculated based on a maximum of some predetermined number of comps with teams being able to improve their overall score by doing well in a contest larger than the smallest contest in their current top portfolio of comps.
 
Gowan said:
It is hard to imagine a more blatant example of how some have lost touch with what made the KCBS circuit successful in the first place.
Click to expand...

I'm curious what you mean here?
 
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