big matt
is one Smokin' Farker
Agreed 100%..IMO maybe the new tracking of judges has brought the scores up as nobody wants to be singled out as the low man?
"Pork" Burnt Ends?
- Thread starter didisea
- Start date
Vince RnQ
is Blowin Smoke!
If that was your team I cited, I meant no personal offense and apologize if I offended you. That was not my intent. That contest was just the most recent example of an ongoing trend of obvious over-scoring (is that really a word?).
If the judges aren't going to use all the numbers then the ones they do use have very little meaning.
gettinbasted
is Blowin Smoke!
No offense taken. I was just having a little fun. I agree with your main point and Arkansas does score notoriously high. I'm pretty sure everyone at that competition was way over-scored with the exception of me!
I think consistency in scoring and getting away from our current three point system would be the ultimate goal, but how...
thesemicullen
Full Fledged Farker
I know that you're kidding, but this exact sentiment is what bothers me with the whole "Judges score too high!" diatribe. I think there is SOME validity to the argument -- 9s are given out too easily, not enough 7s or 6s are used -- but over the past few years, I've also noticed that the quality of barbecue at competitions in this region has gotten a lot better.
ModelMaker
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A judge starts each contest with 72 - 9's in their pocket. I would have no problem giving away each and every one of them, but you gotta earn them.
If your meat is above average you get a 7 from me, I don't care how much money you spent this weekend, how long you worked overnight, etc.
What really bothers me is judges that only know 7,8,9. Head over to BBQ Critic and see judges bash the hell out of an entry and then give it a very good 8!!!
If every judge from this point on would asign their score by name instead of number I think scores would be a touch more accurate.
Ed
If your meat is above average you get a 7 from me, I don't care how much money you spent this weekend, how long you worked overnight, etc.
What really bothers me is judges that only know 7,8,9. Head over to BBQ Critic and see judges bash the hell out of an entry and then give it a very good 8!!!
If every judge from this point on would asign their score by name instead of number I think scores would be a touch more accurate.
Ed
Vince RnQ
is Blowin Smoke!
Exactly! We're more than willing to take the risk with the money Alexa and I spend in order to compete and all we want in return is experienced and accurate judging. When we started competing, we got plenty of 5, 6 & 7 with the occasional 8 or 9. It gave us the type of feedback that allowed us to diagnose and correct our errors and soon the 5 & 6 became fewer and farther between and we saw a lot more 7, 8 & 9. That told us we were getting better.
How are teams supposed to improve if all they ever get are the top three numbers?
thesemicullen
Full Fledged Farker
But that presupposes that the teams around you aren't turning in food as good/close to as good as yours. How do you know they're not?
I don't have problems giving 6s or 5s. I just haven't had to do so all that often.
Vince RnQ
is Blowin Smoke!
Do a comparison of contest scores over the last 4 or 5 years. Look at how much the scores have increased, on average, over that time period from the top of the score sheet to the bottom.
In July 2010, the average winning score for all the contests that month [48] was a 669.
In July 2014, the average winning score for all the contest so far [36] is 687.
Tell me again how scoring hasn't increased.
thesemicullen
Full Fledged Farker
I'm not arguing that scoring hasn't increased, nor am I arguing that judges couldn't stand to use the fuller spectrum of scoring. All I'm saying is that there's more to this phenomenon than judges scoring being artificially high. As I have said before, I have noticed a marked difference in the quality of barbecue across the board in the competitions I judge in this region over the past five years.
Maybe that means average needs to be redefined.
Another thing that's happened in the past five years is the explosion in interest in competition barbecue and the availability of material on how to cook award-winning 'que.
DawgPhan
is Blowin Smoke!
meh you are only looking at less than a 3% increase in scores.
what you would want to look at would be score compression. Basically the average difference between the score that won a category and a score that 10th or something like that.
I think that would better illustrate that the scores are actually getting compressed.
So for example.
Dillard 2011
Grand was a 686 and 10th was 671 15points difference
Chicken 1st place was 177 10th place was 170 7 points difference
Dillard 2014
Grand was 695 and 10th was 685 10 point difference
Chicken 1st place was 177 10th place was 174 3 points difference
15 points means that the difference between grand and 10th is that on every meat one judge gave the top team a 9-9-9 instead of an 9-8-8.
So the difference between 10th and 1st is already very tight.
Shave it to 10 points and the difference is now just 1 judge giving a 9-9-9 instead of a 9-8-9. Just 1 taste point for 1 judge in each meat. That seems really tight.
For chicken it has gotten even worse. 3 points between winning a category and maybe not hearing you name called. 1 taste and 1 app point from one judge.
The scores have compressed a lot at the top. Lots of teams cooking great bbq, no doubt.
DawgPhan
is Blowin Smoke!
thesemicullen
Full Fledged Farker
I'm willing to accept that argument.
But that brings up an entirely new dilemma given the shifting nature of "average."
Pole D
is one Smokin' Farker
Problem for me is there is no definition of what average means since its subjective.
bbq.tom
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Speaking of "average", in CBJ training we were told that "average" is bbq worldwide/nationwide and that we are to COMPARE what we get as entries to "average" in the world. Yet at the same time they are telling judges NOT to compare with anything that they've had before. Therefore, how can one establish "average" and compare to "average" without comparing??? Just a thought.
Having judged for a good many years now, I must admit that I truly believe that "average" competition bbq is MUCH better than "average" worldwide bbq! Therefore, my scores reflect "average" competition bbq as "above average" on the KCBS score scale. Believe me, I'm NOT just a 7-8-9 judge! I score an entry using the entire range of KCBS scores; HOWEVER, it is fairly rare for an entry to fall below "average" competition bbq at a contest, but when it does I will give it the score it deserves along with a comment card for the team.
Other thoughts about "average"???
thesemicullen
Full Fledged Farker
:boxing:
Yes, this is where I'm coming from. Memphis barbecue is damn good and I kind of use the best of it as a measuring stick for average. Average competition que is better and I score accordingly.
Yes, this is where I'm coming from. Memphis barbecue is damn good and I kind of use the best of it as a measuring stick for average. Average competition que is better and I score accordingly.
Smokedelic
Full Fledged Farker
This is a part of the CBJ training class I really have a problem with. When you're judging competition BBQ, your benchmark for what is "average" should be based on your experience tasting competition BBQ, not any BBQ you've ever had. And, yes, new CBJs will have a problem initially with setting a standard for "average", but should be able to dial it in with more experience. Let's not hamstring the whole judging process just because a new CBJ may not have ever experienced competition BBQ.
Candy Sue
is one Smokin' Farker
"notoriously high"??? Really???
I don't believe I agree with that blanket statement (though Conway was high scoring). But, that's just a gut reaction not based in fact study!
Dan - 3eyzbbq
is one Smokin' Farker
What happened to pork burnt ends?
BMerrill
Full Fledged Farker
About pork burnt ends. They will be in my next pork box.
A veteran CBJ once shared some simple wisdom about scoring.
9= You will eat it all and then tell you spouse about this excellent food.
8= Eat most of it and then tell your spouse how good it is hoping she/he doesn't want any.
7= Eat several bites, tell your spouse how good it is and offer him/her a bite.
6= Eat a few bites, tell your spouse its so/so and offer the remainder to them.
5= After taking one small bite you tell your spouse how bad it is. You think twice about letting him/her try it, but decide its best if they don't after contemplating the ride home together. You forego eating the rest. One bite is enough.
4= You are hesitant in trying it. After a quick taste, you were right and quickly spit it out because it taste as bad as it looks and smells. You quickly discard the rest.
2= Will not eat, can not eat, shall not eat. The cook shouldn't have turned in this crap.
A veteran CBJ once shared some simple wisdom about scoring.
9= You will eat it all and then tell you spouse about this excellent food.
8= Eat most of it and then tell your spouse how good it is hoping she/he doesn't want any.
7= Eat several bites, tell your spouse how good it is and offer him/her a bite.
6= Eat a few bites, tell your spouse its so/so and offer the remainder to them.
5= After taking one small bite you tell your spouse how bad it is. You think twice about letting him/her try it, but decide its best if they don't after contemplating the ride home together. You forego eating the rest. One bite is enough.
4= You are hesitant in trying it. After a quick taste, you were right and quickly spit it out because it taste as bad as it looks and smells. You quickly discard the rest.
2= Will not eat, can not eat, shall not eat. The cook shouldn't have turned in this crap.
Head Foolz
Knows what a fatty is.
The judges ate them all..... :thumb:
