Comment Cards-Mandatory?

Hawg Father of Seoul said:

I get what you are saying.

Question is do you want consistent scores or scores that best represent what the population thinks of your Que?

What punishment is fitting for some one who gives out 10.1% more nines? Retraining is punishment in lipstick.

Click to expand...

I understand what you're driving and I agree that we don't want everything to be vanilla, so to speak. We need diversity in our judges just as we need diversity in our cooks.

I have seen a growing trend in the last few years where contests have the lowest scoring teams in each category averaging a score of 777 (140.000) or higher. How much sense does that make? Just as an example, the contest last weekend in Pleasant Hill, MO had 74 teams and only 4 entries out of the 296 possible were scored below the 140 point mark and one of those four was a DQ. So, 3 out of 295 entries were below the 140 point mark in a 74 team field. I think there were some mighty generous judges out there that day.

What I'm trying to say is that a judge who only uses a 7, 8 or 9 is just as bad as a judge who only uses a 5, 6 or 7. Both situations need to be addressed. By tracking, they can identify those who are always in the extreme and do something about it.

If you want to call retraining punishment in lipstick, that's OK with me. I think judges who are always at the extremes have no place in the sport and can dish out a form of punishment that has no lipstick to it at all. While judges do have some expenses involved in pursuing their passion, it doesn't compare to the expenses of the teams and everything that can possibly be done to have the best trained judges in the tent should be done.

Keep in mind that I am a CBJ as well as a cook and I think both deciplines take a lot of skill to master.

Svenmac said:

The best thing Kcbs could ever do is have all judges shadow a team and see how much $$$$ and time the cooks put into a contest.

Click to expand...

This sentiment has been going around for as long as I can remember, and frankly it doesn't hold any water. What goes into preparing an entry is completely irrelevant to the judging processs. An entry is to be scored for how it performs in the three judging criteria, period.

It matters not if an entry took 100 years and a 100 billion dollars, or ten minutes and ten cents to get to the judges. Only Appearance, Taste and Texture matter by KCBS rules.

CivilWarBBQ said:

This sentiment has been going around for as long as I can remember, and frankly it doesn't hold any water. What goes into preparing an entry is completely irrelevant to the judging processs. An entry is to be scored for how it performs in the three judging criteria, period.

It matters not if an entry took 100 years and a 100 billion dollars, or ten minutes and ten cents to get to the judges. Only Appearance, Taste and Texture matter by KCBS rules.

Click to expand...

I know a number of judges who have cooked with a team as part of their Master CBJ requirement and every single one of them has said that they had no idea how much work teams put into getting that meat to the judging table. Their cooking experience has given them a better perspective and inspired them to be much more mindful of their responsibilities when judging. That's something very positive that can come from a judge cooking with a team.

Vince RnQ said:

I know a number of judges who have cooked with a team as part of their Master CBJ requirement and every single one of them has said that they had no idea how much work teams put into getting that meat to the judging table. Their cooking experience has given them a better perspective and inspired them to be much more mindful of their responsibilities when judging. That's something very positive that can come from a judge cooking with a team.

Click to expand...

Agreed. It won't and shouldn't change their judging criteria, but it could possibly correct their attitude about judging if they are too cavalier in scoring.

Sorry, but that still doesn't play. Empathy for the participant is not a requirement of a good judge. By that standard, you'd expect every courtroom judge to grow up in poverty and struggle with drug addiction before they'd be allowed to hear a criminal case.

Is understanding the role of the competition cook a positive thing that adds to the experience of the CBJ? Yes. Is it a requirement or guarantee of competency? No.

I got a comment card on my chicken that said it tasted like lighter fluid. I didn't understand it because I dont use lighter fluid at all. So how can something taste like lighter fluid if youve never use it when you cook

CivilWarBBQ said:

This sentiment has been going around for as long as I can remember, and frankly it doesn't hold any water. What goes into preparing an entry is completely irrelevant to the judging processs. An entry is to be scored for how it performs in the three judging criteria, period.

It matters not if an entry took 100 years and a 100 billion dollars, or ten minutes and ten cents to get to the judges. Only Appearance, Taste and Texture matter by KCBS rules.

Click to expand...

So you don't think judges seeing how much work that goes onto BBQ and takes that knowledge into the tent with them would make them a more accurate scorer?

I wished I lived in your utopian world where personal preference, bias and preconceived ideas were abolished. Because in this world people including the judges have preconceived ideas on appearance, taste and texture. This translates to scores all over the place. Since you obviously think you are so smart why don't you develop a machine to test all three with laboratory accuracy?

CivilWarBBQ said:

Sorry, but that still doesn't play. Empathy for the participant is not a requirement of a good judge. By that standard, you'd expect every courtroom judge to grow up in poverty and struggle with drug addiction before they'd be allowed to hear a criminal case.

Is understanding the role of the competition cook a positive thing that adds to the experience of the CBJ? Yes. Is it a requirement or guarantee of competency? No.

Click to expand...

Ok so you argue that judges should not shadow teams in your first post and then say it adds to the experience do a CBJ?

Ill agree it won't guarantee a thing, but maybe it will help the grumpy "nobody gets a nine" judge or the just there to eat "everybody gets a nine" judge determine if they should really be a CBJ because their attitudes can cost a cook a lot of money should they hit or miss , respectively, one of their tables.

AppalachianAmericanBBQ said:

I got a comment card on my chicken that said it tasted like lighter fluid. I didn't understand it because I dont use lighter fluid at all. So how can something taste like lighter fluid if youve never use it when you cook

Click to expand...

Have a theory on that... Step away from the blue bag.

Svenmac said:

So you don't think judges seeing how much work that goes onto BBQ and takes that knowledge into the tent with them would make them a more accurate scorer?

I wished I lived in your utopian world where personal preference, bias and preconceived ideas were abolished. Because in this world people including the judges have preconceived ideas on appearance, taste and texture. This translates to scores all over the place. Since you obviously think you are so smart why don't you develop a machine to test all three with laboratory accuracy?

Click to expand...

Wow...relax on the personal attacks. I agree with civil it doesn't matter how much it costs that shouldn't be in a judges mind. I have seen guys with motorhomes and jambos get beat by guys in ezups and drums or folks with $100 briskets getting beat by Walmart selects. I don't see where any of that should matter to a judge?

I don't want to see the comments mandatory but leave them as an option. I would also like to see reps give some direction to the judges to explain to them not to try and tell us how to cook (e.g. don't use so much injection) but just what they are tasting and don't like (e.g. spicy) or what they don't like about the texture (e.g. tough) not a comment I have received in the past "you should cook it a little hotter or longer to be more tender".

Sorry I didn't mean to get personal but he refuted my opinion and I did the same of his. You have yours and I have mine also. To be the best at something you must know every aspect of the process. Sorry if you don't feel the same. I'm sure just as many agree with me as do you.

Also rich, I think you're missing the point. I said I only want them to understand what all goes into a contest. I don't care if its Lotta Bull and his 300k setup or joe bob with his WSM either. For the exact reason you mentioned on your rebuttal armchair pitmasters that score up or down based on their personal idea of what BBQ is should checked.

AppalachianAmericanBBQ said:

I got a comment card on my chicken that said it tasted like lighter fluid. I didn't understand it because I dont use lighter fluid at all. So how can something taste like lighter fluid if youve never use it when you cook

Click to expand...

I am going to clear this up for you. Hopefully when the next guy says the exact same thing you can clear it up for him.

You didnt manage your fire properly. That taste the judge ID'd as lighter fluid is dirty smoke on your meat.

You are going to say that you always have perfectly clear blue smoke rolling when you cook.

I am going to say, well keep doing what you are doing.

The problem that this highlights is not stupid judges or judges need to understand the labor of love that is competition bbq. What it shows is that the process works exactly as it should and that comment card while attempting to provide you with great feedback failed because of terminology.

The card should have read there was an off taste to the chicken. Taste scored down accordingly. Too often judges are trying to diagnose the issue on a comment card, rather than just highlight the comment card.

Comment cards should almost always be a description of a problem and not a diagnosis. This is something that could be handled with a simple reminder and explanation before each contest to the judges. No need for retraining, no need for mandatory, just explain when and how they should be using the comment cards. Let the reps pull any cards that dont conform and then the rep can remind that judges privately and individually about why and how they are to use comment cards.

I would like to have comment cards from every judge in every category. I scratch my head every comp when I get my scores back. It is hard to figure when judge #1 gives you 9-8-9 and judge #2 gives you 7-7-7. Why? Comment card would really help justify score. Constructive criticism is always good.

Svenmac said:

Sorry I didn't mean to get personal but he refuted my opinion and I did the same of his. You have yours and I have mine also. To be the best at something you must know every aspect of the process. Sorry if you don't feel the same. I'm sure just as many agree with me as do you.

Click to expand...

Svenmac said:

Also rich, I think you're missing the point. I said I only want them to understand what all goes into a contest. I don't care if its Lotta Bull and his 300k setup or joe bob with his WSM either. For the exact reason you mentioned on your rebuttal armchair pitmasters that score up or down based on their personal idea of what BBQ is should checked.

Click to expand...

I think I see the point you are trying to make but I just still don't get why a judge should be concerned with the work that goes in to a comp. I have had judges cook with me and tell me they can't believe how easy it is as we sit around and drink beer and that when they cooked with another team they were working sun up to sun down. What should they do then?

I think that judges cooking with teams is a good thing. First, it might help the attitudes of each group. Neither group is god's gift and neither could do it without the other. Second, I think that if a judge understands the work that any team puts in, then they MIGHT be compelled to judge as ACCURATELY as possible.

Also, rest assured that if you get a 9-8-7-7-7-5... then you deserved a 7. Don't worry about the 5, you were not getting paid any way. And the 9 was just as wrong as the 5.

I think the reps and sanctioning body should stress to the judges that "most" competitors take these events very serious and note that they invest a lot of time, effort and for the most part money into this.

They need to stress that their scores have a great effect on the outcome and DO NOT TAKE A SCORE LIGHTLY!

Let it go from there.

As for mandatory comment cards, I don't think that's a reality and it would probably end up being worse then it is now with too few.

Yes, I would like comment cards, but when all is said and done, I pretty much know when I have cooked a bad product.

wallace

I guess I'm one of those that work from sunup to sundown at contests so I take it a but more personal I guess. I totally Agree with the last three posts.

sdbbq1234 said:

I think the reps and sanctioning body should stress to the judges that "most" competitors take these events very serious and note that they invest a lot of time, effort and for the most part money into this.

They need to stress that their scores have a great effect on the outcome and DO NOT TAKE A SCORE LIGHTLY!

Let it go from there.

As for mandatory comment cards, I don't think that's a reality and it would probably end up being worse then it is now with too few.

Yes, I would like comment cards, but when all is said and done, I pretty much know when I have cooked a bad product.

wallace

Click to expand...

At MOST of the contests that I've judged the REPs did exactly that! They almost always tell the judges that the cooks spent a lot of time and money to present the boxes that we are to judge and that we should give them the best scoring effort as well.

I will throw this out (IMHO), I cook in competition as well as judge and know the time, effort and money that it takes; HOWEVER, the boxes we judge are to be judged on particular criteria relating to Appearance, Taste, and Tenderness, and I've never seen an indicator on the scorecard for how much a team spent to submit that box as a criteria.

Judge seriously and to the best of your ability - YES
Take into consideration the amount of money spent - NO
otherwise the EZ-UP/WSM team could NEVER win!!!

Exact verbiage as required to be recited or read by a KCBS Rep at the Judges Meeting:

"Please remember JUDGING IS VERY SERIOUS to the contestants. They have dedicated a lot of time and money to compete here today. This is blind judging and the numbers have been changed on the entries. Please do not remove any label from the container and do not take any numbered container from this area.

Score carefully. Once you have recorded a score it cannot be changed unless directed by the KCBS Contest Representative.

KCBS has implemented the use of Comment Cards at all contests. Providing Comment Cards is part of the obligation of Contest Reps. Writing comments is absolutely voluntary on the part of the Judges. Instructions for use of comment cards will be provided if you need them."