Why defrost?

NCGrimbo · Jun 15, 2016

So I was talking to my brother at the grocery store last night and he was looking at the frozen ribs in my basket when he asked, "Do you ever smoke anything without defrosting first?"

I said, "No"

"Why?"

"I like to peel the membrane off the ribs before I cook them and I didn't think you could do that with frozen ribs."

Then he asked, "If that 10lb pork lion in the basket was frozen, would you defrost it first? After all, there's no membrane on it."

After thinking about it, I said that I would still defrost it. But it got me thinking.

Do we need to defrost meat before putting it in the smoker? Assuming the extra time it will take to cook isn't a factor, what are the upsides and what are the downsides of not defrosting before smoking meat?

Ron_L · Jun 15, 2016

Putting frozen meat in the smoker will increase the time that it is in the danger zone (40-140 degrees) and could lead to food safety issues.

Panupat · Jun 15, 2016

But it would be in that range while you're defrosting it too right?

krex1010 · Jun 15, 2016

Panupat said:
But it would be in that range while you're defrosting it too right?

Not if you're defrosting in the fridge like we are supposed to.

KevinJ · Jun 15, 2016

Ron_L said:
Putting frozen meat in the smoker will increase the time that it is in the danger zone (40-140 degrees) and could lead to food safety issues.

For a thin cut like ribs that wouldn't be an issue at all, as for a Butt I really think you'd have to time it out and it would still be subject to cooking temp, I like to cook Butts at 300.

I haven't done it but I know I have read posts on people that have smoked fully frozen Butts on this forum.

Ol'Joe · Jun 15, 2016

Good question, haven't tried it but I may, not that many deg between frozen and thawed

jestridge · Jun 15, 2016

It will tale longer and seem too me like the rub might not go in as good , I'm just guessing at that. I have cook butt that is not completely thaw, turn out ok

Bludawg · Jun 15, 2016

I cook frozen neked fatties they hold the round shape and are really moist.

Gary Tomato · Jun 15, 2016

Juiciest smoked chicken breasts I ever had were started still 25% frozen!

daninnewjersey · Jun 15, 2016

Only one way to find out....

aawa · Jun 15, 2016

1. You increase the time spent in the Danger Zone. If you defrost the ribs, you can do safely by keeping it in the Refridgerator that is cooled below 40 F.

2. More even cooking of meats. As the meat cooks if it is frozen, the outside will cook considerably faster than the inside. This makes more impact when cooking items like steak and poultry. On items like ribs, pork butts, and brisket (that are cooked till the interconnective tissue is rendered) this isn't super important provided you can get the meat out of the danger zone within 4 hours. But starting with frozen meat will increase your cook time considerably.

Mike Twangzer · Jun 15, 2016

Wouldn't be able to get a hook through it to hang in the PBC :grin:

Demosthenes9 · Jun 15, 2016

Ron_L said:
Putting frozen meat in the smoker will increase the time that it is in the danger zone (40-140 degrees) and could lead to food safety issues.

That would be somewhat questionable. The meat is going into a smoker that is over 200 degrees, so the surface of the meat wouldn't be in the danger zone for very long at all. If it's an intact piece of meat, the danger zone rules don't apply to the internals. If it's not intact, it's frozen in the middle when it goes on, so a good portion of it's time initially will be at sub 40 temps.

Demosthenes9 · Jun 15, 2016

aawa said:
But starting with frozen meat will increase your cook time considerably.

It will increase the cook time, but will shorten the overall time of the cook once you take defrosting time into account.

m-fine · Jun 15, 2016

The idea that any part of the meat would spend more time in the danger zone sounds like bunk to me. I fail to see any physical mechanism for this. Sure it will take longer to hit 140, but the extra time is spent going from 0 to 40. I would love to see evidence that this is really an issue.

Uneven cooking is a bigger issue. The outside will defrost and start cooking much faster than the inside. The main argument for low and slow is more even cooking.

With a stick burner, you don't want cold meat because it will cause condensation to form like on your cocktail glass that sweats on a hot humid day, and that can also lead to creosote and bad smoke flavor.

Wood and charcoal are not free. Why waste all that fuel warming up a piece of meat when ambient temps and patience will do the job?

Ron_L · Jun 15, 2016

Demosthenes9 said:
That would be somewhat questionable. The meat is going into a smoker that is over 200 degrees, so the surface of the meat wouldn't be in the danger zone for very long at all. If it's an intact piece of meat, the danger zone rules don't apply to the internals. If it's not intact, it's frozen in the middle when it goes on, so a good portion of it's time initially will be at sub 40 temps.

I guess I don't disagree, but on a lot of food safety sites this practice is not recommended. I'd rather be safe than sorry and defrost properly first.

aawa · Jun 15, 2016

Demosthenes9 said:
That would be somewhat questionable. The meat is going into a smoker that is over 200 degrees, so the surface of the meat wouldn't be in the danger zone for very long at all. If it's an intact piece of meat, the danger zone rules don't apply to the internals. If it's not intact, it's frozen in the middle when it goes on, so a good portion of it's time initially will be at sub 40 temps.

it is also questionable what the surface meat temperature is. Yes it is in a 200 degree cooker, but the surface of the meat is constantly being cooled with the frozen interior. I see this as a wet towel not catching flame until all the water has been evaporated out of it.

I would like to see a more indepth study on this, to see what the surface temperature of a butt would be if frozen and put onto a smoker and how long it would take it to get to from 40F to 140F.

Fwismoker · Jun 15, 2016

Demosthenes9 said:
It will increase the cook time, but will shorten the overall time of the cook once you take defrosting time into account.

Yep it's how you look at it.

Mike Twangzer said:
Wouldn't be able to get a hook through it to hang in the PBC :grin:

I rotisserie ribs often so the same concept applies to me too. lol

Demosthenes9 said:
That would be somewhat questionable. The meat is going into a smoker that is over 200 degrees, so the surface of the meat wouldn't be in the danger zone for very long at all. If it's an intact piece of meat, the danger zone rules don't apply to the internals. If it's not intact, it's frozen in the middle when it goes on, so a good portion of it's time initially will be at sub 40 temps.

I was thinking about whether the meat was intact or not also... it makes a difference.

Gore · Jun 15, 2016

Ron_L said:
I guess I don't disagree, but on a lot of food safety sites this practice is not recommended. I'd rather be safe than sorry and defrost properly first.

... so, do you sous vide your chicken to 165*? ... I think it takes a little while to digest these things. Old habits are hard to break. We know, for instance that knucklhed's link to the science on salmonella caused a lot of conflict as it was in direct contradiction with the mantra, even though it was originally linked on a government food safety website (since removed). Food Safety site practices try to make things simple to remember. If you know the science behind it, then you can definitely cut corners, safely. If not, everyone who sous vides would have died. I have never smoked or cooked anything that is frozen; however, I know that the baddies reside on the surface of the meat and not in the interior. If I'm running my pit at cruising speed, getting sick would be my last concern. I might hesitate about hamburger or sausage, but then again, maybe not.

Ron_L · Jun 15, 2016

Gore said:
... so, do you sous vide your chicken to 165*? ... I think it takes a little while to digest these things. Old habits are hard to break. We know, for instance that knucklhed's link to the science on salmonella caused a lot of conflict as it was in direct contradiction with the mantra, even though it was originally linked on a government food safety website (since removed). Food Safety site practices try to make things simple to remember. If you know the science behind it, then you can definitely cut corners, safely. If not, everyone who sous vides would have died. I have never smoked or cooked anything that is frozen; however, I know that the baddies reside on the surface of the meat and not in the interior. If I'm running my pit at cruising speed, getting sick would be my last concern. I might hesitate about hamburger or sausage, but then again, maybe not.

It's not an old habit, it's being practical. It's not worth it to me to take a short cut that may (and I say MAY) cause issues. I'm not in that much of a hurry. If the meat isn't defrosted I'll make something else that day and plan better next time.

And no, I don't sous vide my chicken to 165 because there is sound research that shows that chicken is pasteurized at 150 once it is held at that temp for 55 minutes (give or take, depending on the thickness of the breast). If there was sound research that said that putting a frozen butt into a 250 (give or take) degree cooker was safe, I may try it, but there are other reasons besides food safety (brought up by aawa above).

Why defrost?

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