How do judges average a box with different types of samples?

Meat Man · Apr 17, 2014

How do judges average a box with different types of samples? Like a pork box with MM, pulled and chunk. Do they simply taste each and score each, then total up the scores and divide by three?

Jorge · Apr 17, 2014

A KCBS judge submits three scores. Appearance, taste, tenderness. The judge pulls the samples they want from you box, and judge. They aren't obligated to try everything.

If you put something in the box that's outstanding, and something that's mediocre in there just to have a choice you probably hurt yourself. You might pick up points for appearance, but taste and tenderness are both weighted more heavily.

bignburlyman · Apr 17, 2014

I don't add the scores for each type in the box and divide, but if one of the items in there is not as good (example: burnt ends are tough, but slices are great in brisket), it will cost you a point or 2. As has been said many times, if it isn't good, don't put it in the box.

Cast Iron Chef · Apr 17, 2014

Jorge said:
The judge pulls the samples they want from you box, and judge. They aren't obligated to try everything.

I thought if you put 2 or 3 things in the box they had to try all 3? Would you not get a 1 if you put 6 slices but only 5 burnt ends?

bignburlyman · Apr 17, 2014

Cast Iron Chef said:
I thought if you put 2 or 3 things in the box they had to try all 3? Would you not get a 1 if you put 6 slices but only 5 burnt ends?

No, you only have to have enough meat for each judge to get a sample. You could have 3 slices and 3 burnt ends for brisket, that would be enough for 6 judges.

Edit to add: Judges are instructed to take some of each meat if they are in the box, but it is not "required".

Southern Home Boy · Apr 17, 2014

Cast Iron Chef said:
I thought if you put 2 or 3 things in the box they had to try all 3? Would you not get a 1 if you put 6 slices but only 5 burnt ends?

You shouldn't get a 1 for that, but you really run the risk of lowering your overall score. As has been said, when I judge multiple submissions from a single cook, a good portion won't bring a bad portion up, but a bad portion will definitely bring the good portion down.

Figure out which is your best and turn that in. K.I.S.S. Don't try to get fancy.

bbq.tom · Apr 17, 2014

Cast Iron Chef said:
Would you not get a 1 if you put 6 slices but only 5 burnt ends?

No, you have at least 6 samples in the box so it would NOT be a DQ. A judge is to judge what's presented, meaning that they should take one of everything, but shouldn't deduct if they don't get one of everything as long as they get a sample from the box.

sdbbq1234 · Apr 17, 2014

Interesting question and topic. My understanding as a judge, if you are presented with more than 1 item or sample, you are supposed to taste each. Burnt ends, and sliced. MM, pulled, chunks, chopped.

The final decision is still up to the individual judge. But, I have made the mistake of turning in more than 1 item in a box and it was not as good as the other. I do believe it cost me points.

wallace

Burnt at Both Endz · Apr 17, 2014

Meat Man said:
How do judges average a box with different types of samples? Like a pork box with MM, pulled and chunk. Do they simply taste each and score each, then total up the scores and divide by three?

Excellent question, I think you will find that no two judges will do it exactly the same way. I can only speak for myself, as a judge.

If you put three products in your box I feel that you, as a cook, want all three products judge as presented. If you have two 9s and one product that is a weak 8....sorry but that's an 8 in my book. Now if it's a strong 8 and the other two are solid 9's, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and score it a 9.

With that said, if a cook puts pulled or chunks of pork and two MM, I'll try both MM also and they better both be cooked correctly. The cook must have wanted them both judged or he wouldn't have put both in there.

big matt · Apr 17, 2014

Burnt at Both Endz said:
Excellent question, I think you will find that no two judges will do it exactly the same way. I can only speak for myself, as a judge.

If you put three products in your box I feel that you, as a cook, want all three products judge as presented. If you have two 9s and one product that is a weak 8....sorry but that's an 8 in my book. Now if it's a strong 8 and the other two are solid 9's, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and score it a 9.

With that said, if a cook puts pulled or chunks of pork and two MM, I'll try both MM also and they better both be cooked correctly. The cook must have wanted them both judged or he wouldn't have put both in there.

This sums it up for me pretty much..most experienced judges are going to give you the lower score if there are multiple products in the box and they aren't all on an even plain..through my experiences I've come to find the KEY is when to leave things out and when to put things in(pork and brisket wise)..the hardest part is actually making that call at turn in time..hahahaha

CBQ · Apr 17, 2014

We like to ask judges questions if they wander by after judging. Heard at the last contest "We have a lot of pork that was three ways, and it's a shame because the pulled wasn't as good and we had to lower the score."

I don't think judges are doing math...dividing by three and averaging...I think you tend to get the score of the worst meat in the box. If you put in a "999" sliced and a "987" pulled, you are probably getting a 987 or 988 on the box.

While judges are supposed to judge what is in the box, I don't think putting in 4 slices of brisket and 2 burnt ends is going to be in your best interest. No matter what the rules say, some judges are going to wonder what the heck happened to your brisket.

Derussi · Apr 17, 2014

Burnt at Both Endz said:
Excellent question, I think you will find that no two judges will do it exactly the same way. I can only speak for myself, as a judge.

If you put three products in your box I feel that you, as a cook, want all three products judge as presented. If you have two 9s and one product that is a weak 8....sorry but that's an 8 in my book. Now if it's a strong 8 and the other two are solid 9's, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and score it a 9.

With that said, if a cook puts pulled or chunks of pork and two MM, I'll try both MM also and they better both be cooked correctly. The cook must have wanted them both judged or he wouldn't have put both in there.

I couldn't have said it better. I believe a judge should take a sample of all meat in a box and respect that what the cook has presented is their best.

jketron · Apr 17, 2014

A KCBS judge is instructed to pull from each type in a box and then judge them all and average the score.

Rookie'48 · Apr 18, 2014

The judge is supposed to take a sample of each style presented (if there are enough) and then to judge the box as a whole. The term "As presented by the cook" should be a judge's guideline when scoring the entry.

BigBellyBBQ · Apr 18, 2014

if you put multiples in box, be sure you have 6 / 6 /6 min of each style ..it would be suicide if you ever did a 2 / 4 sample

Jorge · Apr 18, 2014

Rookie'48 said:
The judge is supposed to take a sample of each style presented (if there are enough) and then to judge the box as a whole. The term "As presented by the cook" should be a judge's guideline when scoring the entry.

When asking about different samples in the box I've had more than one Rep tell me that judges are instructed to take a sample of each, but not required to. If policy is different everybody isn't on the same page.

bignburlyman · Apr 18, 2014

BigBellyBBQ said:
if you put multiples in box, be sure you have 6 / 6 /6 min of each style ..it would be suicide if you ever did a 2 / 4 sample

I actually judged a contest last weekend that someone only put 3 slices (poorly cut slices) of brisket in with a pile of pulled brisket. It was not an attractive box anyway so it didn't score well there, but the judges who did not get a slice shouldn't score down (suicide) on taste and tenderness for slices they did not even get to judge. Judges can only judge what they get, and this turn in was a wreck across the board as the pulled was as dry as the poorly cut slices. As has been said scoring should never be based on what the judge expects, but on what the judge gets.

rhazzon · Apr 18, 2014

During training and during comps it is 'suggested' that the judges sample each entry when multiples are included in a single turn-in box. The judge should then 'average' the scores of everything sampled. I don't believe this is a rule so much as it is a suggestion. I've seen it help and hurt entries. I've had sliced that was a bit dry (score of 7) along with a perfect burnt end (score of 9) so my submitted score was an 8.

I did see a team load the bottom of the box with pulled pork instead of greens to lift the meat up in the box. As the box was passed around and entries were removed this layer of meat became exposed. Judges then began grabbing some of this meat as part of the entry. It was horrible and I don't think it was intended to be consumed/scored, but nevertheless it was put in the box and judged. It REALLY hurt the team on what would have otherwise been a great entry.

Meat Man · Apr 18, 2014

We'll always put 6 samples of each in, seems like a no-brainer to me. The obvious for cooks if it isn't great don't put it in. I just didn't understand how judges come up with scores for boxes with different samples. Seems like it is most often judged as a whole, with out any averaging taking place at all.
Thanks for the input.

Uomograsso · Apr 18, 2014

Jorge said:
When asking about different samples in the box I've had more than one Rep tell me that judges are instructed to take a sample of each, but not required to. If policy is different everybody isn't on the same page.

There is no official policy, at least none that I could find the CBJ manual, nor in the rules, but the unwritten rule is that if it is placed in the box it is to be sampled. A judge may select their entry, but every contest I have been at if there are multiple presentations the judges should sample each style in the box. The exception to this would be chicken where a team put in 3 thighs & 3 legs, but I have seen where they put in 6 thighs and sliced breast meat and we took some of each.

If presented with multiple styles I average them all out. I have had numerous times where one was great another bad and it pulled the average score down.

How do judges average a box with different types of samples?

Full Fledged Farker

somebody shut me the fark up.

is one Smokin' Farker

is Blowin Smoke!

is one Smokin' Farker

is Blowin Smoke!

is Blowin Smoke!

is Blowin Smoke!

Babbling Farker

is one Smokin' Farker

is One Chatty Farker

Is lookin for wood to cook with.

Full Fledged Farker

Quintessential Chatty Farker

is Blowin Smoke!

somebody shut me the fark up.

is one Smokin' Farker

Well-known member

Full Fledged Farker

Knows what a fatty is.

Similar threads