Questioning Results

Balls Casten said:
Agreed, the "problem' is not the judges .. its the criteria we use to score.
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And what criteria is that? When I became a CBJ, what I heard was "judge the first bite the same as you judge the last bite in a category." Other than the pull test for brisket, the stick-to-the-roof-of-mouth test for pork, the one clean bite for ribs, there's no standard for judging. Besides how can you standardize something this subjective?
 
Candy Sue said:
And what criteria is that? When I became a CBJ, what I heard was "judge the first bite the same as you judge the last bite in a category." Other than the pull test for brisket, the stick-to-the-roof-of-mouth test for pork, the one clean bite for ribs, there's no standard for judging. Besides how can you standardize something this subjective?
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Exactly what I was saying our criteria is one's own opinion. We have no real criteria to score against.
 
nmayeux said:
Just to be clear, I wasn't assuming anything. I just wanted to know when results should be formally questioned. We all know that bitching doesn't accomplish anything, but just rolling over doesn't help either. By questioning with 'reasonable' cause lets the organizer know that there might be an issue, and also might give the competitor some piece of mind. If I put as much time, effort, and money into putting together an event like last weekend, I sure would rather someone bring their concerns to me, than to go and bash it behind my back.

This thread is in no way an attack on anyone. I just wanted insight into options and etequette when you do have a question. For the record, I had a great weekend, and will do it again and again for the foreseable future.
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It probably should also be pointed out to Guy that at least one member of your team has judged more than 20 contests this year alone...

There's been very few contests this year that we've had the WTF!!! moments when we got the scoresheets...but when we did, it was flooring at times.
 
Sauced! said:
The same kcbscore that has been in the hopper for years? :confused: By the time this thing sees the light of day a lot of us will be retired from competition!
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I just went back thru time on this. Not years, but months is more accurate. It's not appropriate for me to write a history on this, I'm too involved and I guarantee I have a bias! Work began on this particular scoring program September 2011, based on the prior work developed on the very expensive proprietary database model. I truly hope that it can be rolled out for the 2013 season.
 
If you don't like the 3 point system, come cook KCBS in the northeast where judges are not afraid to give you a 4. :becky:

Recently heard conversation in the judges tent: "This is really, really good, and it says on the score sheet that 7 is "better than average", so I'm giving it a 7."

The best food still wins, and you see the same set of the "usual suspects" winning, but the scores run about 20-30 points below midwestern and southern contests.

As far as the original post: poeple are right when they say just deal with it. It happens. You hit a bad table, and all bets are off. You can't really judge the quality of your food by a single contest's results. Hopefully KCBScore will offer some insight into whether or not we hit a bad table or just turned in bad food.


When we cook south of the Mason-Dixon line we get a 30 point bump in our scores.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I don't think anyone denies that judging can be improved. I am just tired of all the threads beating up the judges. My point is that we compete knowing that the system is imperfect. If you get dealt a hand you don't like, deal with it. Everyone assumes the judges did something wrong when they don't do well. If thats true why do the Smoking Triggers, Lotta Bull, Jacks Old South etc. always seem to do well? Even if we had comment cards filled out religiously, someone is going to find something else about the judging to bitch about.
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So we should just sit with the status quo and not try and change anything because you think cooks will complain about something?

I've learned to take the bad with the good and not let one competition scores make me question judging as my scores have been pretty consistent this year for the level of cooking I can do at this point in my competition journey. Which leads me to completely agree with you that the top teams do consistently well so judging does have consistency. But the mindset that "cooks will always find something to complain about thus why bother change anything" doesn't help the system when there are cooks and judges who want to try and improve things.

Comment cards (the few I've gotten) have been very helpful to me and I've even had some scores turn around this year on categories I've had trouble with. This is because I got some great constructive feedback specifically with comment cards that had feedback/comments based on 7's. So the food was "above average", but the judges were awesome enough to let me know what small things they would have liked to make it better.
 
I don't cook KCBS, so allow me to ask a dumb question. How many boxes does a judge typically score for 1 category?
 
JS-TX said:
I don't cook KCBS, so allow me to ask a dumb question. How many boxes does a judge typically score for 1 category?
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At the comp I was a table runner it worked out to be around 6 boxes per category. I believe the ratio is supposed to be one judge per team with 6 judges plus a table captain at each table.
 
Only 6? Well if that's the case then comment cards should be a requirment, at least on all below average scores.. IMO. Even short simple comments would do, like too bland, too sweet, no smoke, too tough etc..
 
Judging is subjective. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains. As long as humans are judges there will be variations in taste and texture. Some like it hot, some like it sweet, some want melt in your mouth, some want more chew. It is what it is and you can't tell people what they are supposed to like. Top cooks try to please the majority.

AND organizers control who judges. Sometimes contests include celebrity judges. It's up to the contest. All a cook can do is go out and try to hit their mark and hope for the best.
 
I judge and table captain, sometimes at the same time...the suggestion that I have is to give more time for the judging, say 45 minutes between turn ins instead of the current 30 minutes. Judging always feels rushed. I believe given more time, judges could "potentially" do a better assessment.

I would suggest having a comment section directly on the score cards, say to the right of each teams scoring boxes...I believe judges would be more likely to write more comments, good and bad, if there was a spot directly on the score card instead of having to find and fill out another card...see feeling rushed above. It could even be detachable if it is deemed too much work for the Reps to transcribe comments into the scoring system.

I don't know how you all feel about judges getting to take home their leftovers, but from what I have experienced, I believe that this is a detriment to judging and creates more of a "how much can I score to take home" attitude for some judges. Not all judges cook BBQ, so judging gives them the opportunity to "score" some of the best BBQ. My bet would be that if each team was given a 5th annonymous box, that they would be more than happy to fill them up for judges to take home.

Just my $.02 opinions, and you know the old saying about opinions. Yes I am new, and this is my first post on the forum. I have been reading the forum for quite a while, and this topic pushed me to sign up. Troubling issues fall on deaf ears without also providing viable solutions at the same time.
 
fnbish said:
So we should just sit with the status quo and not try and change anything because you think cooks will complain about something?

Comment cards (the few I've gotten) have been very helpful to me and I've even had some scores turn around this year on categories I've had trouble with. This is because I got some great constructive feedback specifically with comment cards that had feedback/comments based on 7's. So the food was "above average", but the judges were awesome enough to let me know what small things they would have liked to make it

Please do not put words in my mouth. My post was in response to an earlier post where the poster was complaining about judges being too lazy to fill out comment cards when he spent lots of money and time. I never suggested that things should be status quo. I just don't think comment cards are going to make the scores any different. All comment cards will tell you is why someone thinks your turn was good or bad. Cooks will still take issue with the score even if they know why they got that score from the comment card. I have never received a comment card that was useful. I don"t know what the answer is but I do know that having comment cards filled out is not going to improve judging.
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Noah, we did a comp earlier this year with a lot of new judges. We found out later that it had way more new judges than the norm. Our scores were all over the board. We had something a 999565 in several categories.

But here's the thing: a top team won the event. Why didn't they get a bad table like us? Luck? Or did half of our box suck for real?

I really shook my head after that event and it made me wonder why I'm doing this. Like you said, a lot of money goes into one of these weekends.
 
Concerning comment cards, we have never received a comment card that was useful. Case in point, we got a 1st place Brisket this year in July. The very next comp we did the exact same thing in brisket: same grade of beef, same rub, same sauce, same everything. At that next comp we scored middle of the pack and got a comment card that read, "your sauce on the brisket tasted like super market gravy". I wanted to find that judge and show him our brisket trophy from 3 weeks ago.

Again, it made me shake my head and ask myself why I keep doing this. But here I am prepping for next season!!!

The best input I get is not from comment cards but from talking to judges (preferably experienced judges) after judging and before awards. They will tell you things like what was scored down at their table and why, and what they like to see and taste.
 
Sawdustguy said:
. Cooks will still take issue with the score even if they know why they got that score from the comment card. I have never received a comment card that was useful. I don"t know what the answer is but I do know that having comment cards filled out is not going to improve judging.
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I didn't mean to put words in you mouth sorry, but seems to be ok for you to let us all know how every single cook will feel and that cooks still take issue with the scores they received regardless. I don't feel that way so please don't speak for me. Because if I felt that way I would never improve.

I agree that filling out cards might not improve judging. That isn't my/the point. What comment cards do is reflect why the score was given. Therefore it can help the cooks to figure out how to improve. I understand there are many out there that haven't gotten many useful comment cards, but I have and the helped improve my end product.
 
I have also noticed the rule of no box hitting the same table twice . Is this necessarily a good thing to let a box sit and get cold so it doesn't hit a certain table?
 
Comment cards. If you get 999995 and get a card that says too sweet are you going to change or say that's a jerk I got 5 9's and that's what I need. If only one judge is low the comments are useless. If you get 3 or more low scores then comments may be helpful if they all say the same thong. You'd do far better by asking an experienced team to taste and give their honest opinion. Most of us will do just that if you ask Friday night. If you ask me I'll say sure but I'll be honest so you might not like it. Don't take my comments as criticism of you but as a way to improve. It took 7 years for my first grand and 2 or 3 till my first blue ribbon. It takes time and lots of practice.
 
The only time I ever questioned a score was when we recieved a 2 for taste from one judge, and 8s and 9s from the rest. It was a data entry error, and the result moved us from 3rd to 1st place in brisket. Other than that sort of head scratching outlier, I would never officially question a score. Too many other things affecting scores.
 
After reading this thread, I wasn't sure I wanted to post, but I will offer my thoughts.
I am a new KCBS judge, not many KCBS competitions under my belt, but I have judged food prior to doing BBQ. We were told at our KCBS class that cooking teams spend a lot of money to enter these contests, between entry fees, meat and other costs and we should give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. Of course, the judging scale is 1-9, so why shouldn't 6 or 7, be an average score?
Judges are told to judge each sample by its own merits, and not compare two different samples until AFTER they are scored.
So if I were to view Sample 1 and I say WOW that looks great...I want to eat that and go 9 on that appearance, taste sample 1 and it was average, and go 7 or 6 on that, and it was tough and rubbery and go 5.
In the end, the total would average to a 7 or 6...(am I correct here?) So, one element of the sample screws the total score.(in the computer)

When the smoke clears, and all the samples are judged and the sheets leave the table, conversation starts between judges and you hear some interesting things. I have heard several times references to the cost and how teams deserve at least a 7 for paying out what it costs to compete.
IMHO, I believe that competition teams deserve an Honest score, from honest people who love BBQ and want to do an honest evaluation.

If I applied the same logic to what I compete in, just because I showed up I should be granted a high score without ever getting my gear out, just because I spent a couple K on equipment. For me, I want to be judge honestly for my skill, not for showing up.

And brethren, this is only my opinion. I do think that what the KCBS offers in the way of a judging class and judging standards to be lacking.
 
I am a competitor who started out as a judge and am sick of reps and other judges worrying or caring about how much it costs to compete in contests. What we spend on a contest should have no influence on how a judge should score. I will go so far as to say KCBS needs to tell reps to stop referencing costs when giving instructions to judges. We spend whatever amount of money on a contest because we choose to, not because we expect a rep to tell judges about how much we spend. I don't expect to receive a good score based on how much money I've spent, but rather on how my food tastes and looks.

Having said that, I sent an email to our KCBS BoDs back in April about a couple of reps telling judges they needed to score 8s and 9s with an occasional 7 at a contest. My first email went unanswered. The second recieved a response more concerned about my grammer mistakes and never responded to the actions of the reps. I will share these with anyone who sends a PM if interested.
Benny
 
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