Judging: Among The Brethren.

I'm a late bloomer at this party, but I strongly agree with the intent of the original post.

At the KCBS events that we cook in we are still newbys, but we do see an occasional judge or team that crosses over from the MIM/MBA circuit and so we will visit, drink, bs etc. if they take time to stop in. I don't think any ammount of fraternization with judges is really going to give any team a distinct advantage in the circuits that are all-blind judging.

The MIM/MBA still uses the on-site judging for the preliminary and most finals rounds. The thoughts of impropriety and questions of judges integrity really buzz through some teams when they see folks that party and socialize specifically with certain teams on Friday night turn out to be judging some of those same teams on Saturday afternoon. The contest reps do instruct the judges of fairness and impartiality during the Saturday morning judges briefing, but as was mentioned very early on this thread, someone's perception is their reality and then the behind the back accusations can get started.

When I judge at MIM/MBA contests I sometimes get selected for on-site judging. I occasionally will draw a team or teams that I am great friends with, but because of what I expect of them as cooks and other judges when I am being judged. I judge as I am instructed and don't play any favorites or try and sabotage anyones efforts.

We can all hope that all the judges in all the circuits will conduct themselves with the highest level of integrity, regardless of how much time they spend with a team or what they do before they step into the tent for the serious Saturday stuff.

TroyGirl

Hey guys, if it looks bad, it is bad! There is no such thing as paranoia in competition.

I wear my ha( when I judge but stay away until turn ins are done. I may know what bros are competing but no way to know whose q is whos

Personally I would not have a problem if I saw a judge sitting with a competitior. They have boxes with numbers for a reason, and then they put different numbers on the box when you turn it in. It would be extremely difficult for a judge to figure out who it was. I have seen judges sitting with competitiors before and never thought twice, and they were wearing their name takes and a judges shirt.

People are just looking for something to complain about, if they got GC they would not complain. If they do poorly there are people that will complain how far away they were from the judges tent and multiple other things.

You can't make everyone happy all of the time. I understand that you don't want to give off the perception of favoritism. I would say hanging out the day before is ok, but the day of turn ins don't stop by until after judging is complete. Have a beer with our brothers in smoke and help clean up. That way no one could say that there was favoritism.

This is just MO.

backporchbbq said:

Personally I would not have a problem if I saw a judge sitting with a competitior. They have boxes with numbers for a reason, and then they put different numbers on the box when you turn it in. It would be extremely difficult for a judge to figure out who it was. I have seen judges sitting with competitiors before and never thought twice, and they were wearing their name takes and a judges shirt.

People are just looking for something to complain about, if they got GC they would not complain. If they do poorly there are people that will complain how far away they were from the judges tent and multiple other things.

You can't make everyone happy all of the time. I understand that you don't want to give off the perception of favoritism. I would say hanging out the day before is ok, but the day of turn ins don't stop by until after judging is complete. Have a beer with our brothers in smoke and help clean up. That way no one could say that there was favoritism.

This is just MO.

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I like that whole concept:biggrin:

I have to agree with my son, Josh, Back Porch BBQ.

I have been judging for years and would love to hang with the cooks and maybe get some pointers. I tried to do this at one contest and was told that i was removed form the judge list and would not beable to judge in that contest. Since then I have not even walked thru the cookers to get to the judges tent.

I don't feel it is appropriate for judges to linger with teams it just looks bad and if one of those teams were to win it all it is even more suspect in the eyes of teams who didn't

dsmith4238 said:

I have been judging for years and would love to hang with the cooks and maybe get some pointers. I tried to do this at one contest and was told that i was removed form the judge list and would not beable to judge in that contest. Since then I have not even walked thru the cookers to get to the judges tent.

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Why don't you ask a team to pit beotch for them for a weekend and forgo judging that contest. Then you'll be able to see what goes on from the cooks point of view. It may give you a new perspective.

I'm really glad to see this discussion here (even though it was three years ago). High ethical standards are very important.

From a BBQ competition layman's point of view, I would say judges should refrain from contact with teams as soon as food prep beings ... that means as soon as someone reaches for a container of salt, vanish.

Less fun? Sure. But, that's part of maintaining one's honor.

This topic was beaten to DEATH repeatedly last winter on the KCBS Rep forum. After all the smoke cleared, the day before (and evening) a contest is personal time and does not require seperation between judges and cooks. The day of the contest,(and yes, we discussed whether or not that meant 12:01:01 AM) Judges may walk the venue and exchange greetings with the cooks. However, judges should not "hang" with the teams until after the last category has been judged. On a more personal note, I certainly haven't had the pleasure to meet many of the cooks nationwide, but of the 100, or so, that I have met, NONE of them would be willing to cheat to win! Sure, some of them are buttheads, but cheats? Not hardly!

We have competed and judged for years. It is my understanding that with KCBS there is to be no fraternizing the day of turn-in. We know alot of the teams cooking and can't wait to talk with them, but we do wait until after the judging is complete. After all, I would hope that integrity is still a part of the picture. When you step in the judge's tent, you are a judge...just do your job fair and square. I have also personally worked as a volunteer at the turn-in table at several events. It would be tough to get past the number transfer, because it varies based on the rep at the event. Most reps only have one other person who even knows the conversion that day. They take it pretty serious and rightly so. AS a cook, I want the juding to be fair too. I do have to agree that after a while you may think you know who's box you have. But again, you judge each ENTRY on its own merit...block that out of your head, be that person of integrity and do what you signed up to do. If you can't then you don't need to be judging. The folks that get hung up in all the garbage are forgetting the spirit of the bbq community...good people and good times.

As an organizer and a CBJ our event follows some basic rules. As a judge I don't care who you spend time with, or talk to, or drink with the night before turn in. On the day of turn in, I expect NO judges to be talking with, drinking with, or socializing with teams until after the judging is completed. As far as clothing goes..... on the day of judging I like to see blue or maroon KCBS shirts... and that is usually all that I see. I have never had a problem with the two mixing things up. I respect my teams, and I respect my judges..... And I expect everyone to do the same.

Of course we have a fenced in event and admission gates. Judges come in that morning and are led to the judges tent where they have breakfast items waiting for them. Then they have their meeting. After that they are free to wander until the first turn in time.... But they all seem to know that wandering by the teams is a no no......

Excellent post and great discussion. I'm a relatively new CBJ and more experienced backyard cooker. I don't pretend to speak for KCBS, but in the book they give you at CBJ training, it offers the following "Instructions for Judges"

"Contest Weekend:

Do not fraternize with teams. Limit your visiting time with any team.

Do not visit with teams after Judge's Orientation."

Hope this helps the discussion. And putting in a plug for Table Captains. The TCs present your food and help your judges for little or no reward. Adding a seventh serving is entirely within the rules, will offer insurance against getting DQ'd if two of your portions don't get cut apart cleanly, and will give your table captains something to eat, which they don't get otherwise!

As a KCBS CBJ we are told not to mingle with any cooks on turn in day. Also as some one else noted it is a double blind judging and the table captain's and judge's look for marked containers. I have been a CBJ for four years and have judged nineteen contest. I go to the contests to meet new friends and learn more about BBQ for myself. I like to talked with the cookers on Friday afternoon and evening but stay away on turn in day.

Certified MBN/MBA judge here; judged too many to count (60+). Like with anything, there are good judges and not-so-good judges. However, in all of my judging, sanctioned BBQ or not, I dont recall ever a time where I saw or felt like a judge was showing some favoritism. Ever. Hasn't happened. Whether they socialized with teams or not, I've never seen even a hint of it. After judging/scoring is over, we'd THEN (and only then) discuss them. Come to find out. 90% of the time we all agreed on which one was best. The other 10% were when there were 2 great Q's at the table and they'd reverse the order of first to second. That's it.

Many of the judges also compete. Some of us, dare I say it, also compete in other
non-BBQ sanctioned competitions. Me; I'm a CASI chili guy.

Anyway, I can tell you, unless the container is marked (which is an immediate disqualification in any type of a sanctioned event), there is no way to discern one
product from another; not when sitting at the judges table.

Side note, as earlier stated, MIM/MBN also has on-site judging. Yes, I can see where
it's possible here to show favoritism, and that's one reason I dont care for that
portion of MIM/MBA. However, I can tell you, none of them have ever won a contest
as a result of their on-site scores. So, in fact, it matters not. The only way it could
matter is if you're scored WAY WAY WAY down (on-site I mean) so that your product
doesn't make it to finals table. That *could* happen technically, but again, as 3
judges judge each, and things that *stand out* are thrown out, I doubt that it's ever happened.

I now also compete, and I'll guarantee that my buddies cannot tell my Q from anyone
else's when it comes across the table.

Just my humble opinion.

You know, I've read this thread three or four times over the last couple of years . . . and it's a good one. That's why I keep coming back to it.

Now that I am finishing up my second 'season' of judging, I feel compelled to add my two cents here.

There is no way . . . no way AT ALL . . . for a judge in a KCBS sanctioned event to tell whose BBQ they are judging. Now, with that said, yes. I DO seem to 'recognize' some of the entries. The entries I do 'recognize' are certainly unique - and they are some of the best BBQ I've ever imagined possible. But do I have any idea, specifically, who that entry belongs to? No way.

AND

I cannot imagine even beginning to think about being a serious BBQ competitor without having judged, as the Grand Pubah says, at least five or six competitions.

The entire reason I even started judging was because I realized that we (HawgsNHeifers) had no idea what "IT" was that we were shooting for. Now I know. And our scores have gone downhill ever since! Yes, that's true - but we are adjusting with our new found knowledge.

Some people play golf for a hobby. Some people take their boats out to the lake. I judge BBQ and I take that very seriously.

In my 3 short years of competing, which is just one comp a year, (Smoke in the Spring, Osage City Kansas) and looking over results from other midwest competitions, it's amazing how many of the same teams seem to take walks. Perhaps it's because it's the same general pool of judges that seem to be around here and they all like sort of the same taste. Understanding what that taste is is hard to duplicate if your never on the receiving (judge) end. Like David said, if you've never been there, how do you know unless your just lucky to do it right the first time. If I had that kind of luck I would drive directly to the casino after the awards.
I guess you either need to cook it the way you like it or the way the judges like it...

Clearly the spirit of competition is alive within this thread and bbq'ers alike. Blind judging is important so that competitors dont feel awkward and uneasy when they might see a judge shooting the breeze with a cooker/friend.

Me it is my humble opinion that Cookers make the best judges, we have more insight into what good BBQ is and what too look for. I am a cooker and a Master Judge with the South Carolina BBQ Association. Let me tell you there is no way in blind judging you can tell who cooked what , the only thing we get is the nuber on the box to go by. While judging I wont go around the teams till juding is over but if somebody says good morming when I walk by it only good manners to say it back to em.

Below is what it takes to be a BBQ Judge with the SCBA in South Carolina.

SCBA Requirements

To become a Judge, Certified Judge and Master Judge​

　
The SCBA membership dues are a low $35 annually for an individual or only $45 for a family. After the basic dues are paid the Certification Seminar is only $20.
Members receive notices of activities, invitations to events and an apron and certification certificates when they are certified. They also receive hats when they make Senior Judge and Master Judge.
Rank Requirements

SCBA Barbeque Judge = Completed the Seminar and ready to judge a contest
Certified SCBA Judge = 1) Completed the course 2) Judged in four different contest, 2 which are SCBA events.
3) Available to judge or work in the Carolina Q Cup
4) Paid your dues

SCBA Senior Judge = 1) Completed the course and any subsequent course2) Judged in 15 contest, 5 of which are different, 10 (total) which are SCBA events.3) Judged in or worked in a Carolina Q Cups, 4) Cooked with a team in a contest.
5) Paid your dues

SCBA Master Judge = 1) Completed the course and any subsequent course 2) Judged in 30 contest, 10 of which are different, 25 (total) which are SCBA events.
3) Judged or worked in 2 different Carolina Q Cups
4) Cooked with at least three teams
5) Paid your dues

Judges may, after they have judged in two different SCBA contests, complete some of their requirements by filling out Restaurant Judging Sheets. These sheets come in packs of 5 (stapled together) and should remain together. A judge may complete one set of 5 restaurants judgings to count as one contest towards becoming a Certified Judge. A Certified Judge may complete three sets of 5 (15 total) to count as three contests towards his Senior Judge’s requirement. A Senior Judge may complete 6 sets of 5 (30 total) to count as 6 contests towards his Master Judge’s requirements.