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KCBS Says Cheating Better Than Offending TOTY

From the KCBS rules:

CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION of a team, its members and/or guests: A cook team is responsible jointly and severally for its head cook, its team members and its guests.

Yes. Joint and several responsibillity. It means that any person can be held responsible for any other person's actions. It does not mean that the head cook is responsible for every one's actions. I'm not saying that there was no basis for punishing me.* I'm saying that it is not true that the BOD had to punish me for some one else's actions, nor is it true that the rules stated that it was encumbant upon me to keep a leash on every member of my team.

dmp

*I think it's worth noting that joint and several liabillity is considered unconstitutional in the state of Tennessee, and is not applicable in civil liabillity lawsuits. How that applies to private matters that occur in Tennessee, I'm not sure, but it makes me think.
 
Missouri

Joint and Several Liability Reform: H.B. 393 (2005); § 537.067 R.S.Mo.

Provides that joint and several liability applies if a defendant is 51 percent or more at fault. In such circumstances, the defendant is jointly and severally liable for the amount of the judgment rendered against the defendant. If a defendant is found to be less than 51 percent at fault, the defendant is only responsible for the percent of the judgment he or she is responsible for.



Joint and Several Liability Reform: HB 700 (1987).

Bars application of the rule of joint and several liability in the recovery of all damages when a plaintiff is assessed a portion of the fault.



Joint and Several Liability Reform: § 537.067 R.S.Mo.

Limits joint liability to two times the defendant’s percentage of fault, if the plaintiff was at fault.

Here is Missouri law. Seems like that is more in your favor as well.
 
My Momma taught me that life is not fair. I accept that, and move on. I'm of the opinion that if anyone was told somewhere along the line that life was fair, they should find the person that told them that and call them a liar.

That being said, these were two separate issues, heard by the board at separate times. This is not a judicial system where case precesdence is looked at, and witnesses are brought in to testify. When the rep issue was heard I'd be surprised if anyone even thought about the apron issue. Is that fair? Probably not. (reference above paragraph)

It's a hobby - not life and death - try to have fun!
 
I'm not sure of the legal terminology but I think folks aren't addressing the disparity of punishment between the team members for the same reasons an accomplice in a crime gets a different sentence than the someone else more directly involved. IE; the trigger man gets life and the driver of the getaway car gets 10 years and probation. in the case of DMP it seems he was considered the triggerman.

I'm tracking you brother, in fact this is what I am talking about. Out of the 3 people invovled with the whole apron fiasco, 2 were banned for 3 years another was placed on probation for a year.

It is my view that the the person given the year probation was given a fair punishment for the "wearing of the apron" yet for some reason nobody seems willing to talk about this guy. Why arent we bitching about this guy getting off light when the hammer fell on the other two? Where is the "a broken rule is a broken rule, everything must be equal" argument in this scenario? Is it because we think he received a just punishment or because we better not mention his name he may get in trouble?

It is also my view that the other 2 people have been punished more harshly for other mitigating circumstances above and beyond "wearing an apron". In all three cases, all three were given equal oppurtunity to defend themselves and their actions. All three did so for an extended period of time directly to the BOD in closed session.

In general I find the BOD members to be quite reasonable folks. A majority of them not once, but twice, saw fit to punish 2 of 3 people invoved in the same act much more harshly then the other participant. In that they based their decision on information and evidence above and beyond what we as the public have access to, then I am going to trust their decision.
 
It is my view that the the person given the year probation was given a fair punishment for the "wearing of the apron" yet for some reason nobody seems willing to talk about this guy.

I don't bring "Fred" into the picture because it doesn't fit my thesis. I don't publically agree or disagree with your statements regarding the disparity between his punishment and mine, but I am referring to a different disparity, plain and simple. To me, this is about all the people who say "The apron hurt the product or integrity of KCBS." I think false score cards hurt it more. Plain and simple.

In all three cases, all three were given equal oppurtunity to defend themselves and their actions. All three did so for an extended period of time directly to the BOD in closed session.

This is not completely true. In my case, along with the other two involved, we were given the opportunity to call in and answer questions. The rest happened in "executive executive session" without us present. There is a pretty far cry from answering questions to defending ourselves. We were never told the exact accusations levied against us, nor ever given a chance to "defend" ourselves. A majority of the questions that they asked were about protecting themselves too: "When did you put the apron on? Who saw you with the apron? Is there any way that you can prove that the reps and promotor knew you had it, or can we get out of this without punishing them?" The last one is an exaggeration, but that was the gist of most of them.

Some examples, as I mentioned above, some one told the BOD that the mayor of the town was embarressed over the incident, but I was not told that until after the fact, and of course I found it to be untrue. Another example, some one (the same person?) told the BOD that at that competition I threatened or attacked some one with a knife. THAT IS A BOLD FACED LIE. I was not informed of that accusation until months later, and again, never got the chance to defend myself against it. The BOD just accepted it as fact and didn't even tell me about it. For the two motions that were brought up (only one voted) to reduce my punishment, I was never invited to speak on my own behalf. Who knows what other slanderous BS any one told the BOD and they used to punish me without informing me?

A majority of them not once, but twice, saw fit to punish 2 of 3 people invoved in the same act much more harshly then the other participant. In that they based their decision on information and evidence above and beyond what we as the public have access to, then I am going to trust their decision.

As I mentioned above, it was information not available to me either, and at least some of it was untrue. When I told a member of the BOD that the mayor told me he was not embarressed, he was shocked. Also, it's worth noting, that the two motions made since the punishment (of which I'm aware) were for me only, not the other two involved.

dmp
 
Is there any chance that someday--maybe in the deep dark future--that the positions of everyone will be stated over and over enough times that this thread can just fade into "electron heaven" and get some rest ??

Just curious.

TIM
 
22 pages later it's all about the "night" of the apron incident and a lot of 3rd hand statements. Are we supposed to just blindly become sympathizers and agree? Geez over and over.
 
What! and ruin a good soap opera? I hope not, haven't reached the longest thread milestone yet.:twisted:
 
I seem to recall spending the first several pages of this thread trying to keep from discussing the actual apron incident, and even said I thought it had gone as far as it could go. I failed and the gave in when some one started to ASSume facts. It would not bother me if this thread died down and went away, but as long as some one is in here saying things that just aren't true, I'll set the record strait. Of course, as I said in the beginning, folks are welcomed to PM me to ask questions in stead.

Not to come across as too much of a jerk, but with the exception of mods, I don't recall any one being forced to read this thread. There are several I quit reading over the years, and never even began the UDS thread....

Like I tell my wife though, I'm sure it's all my fault in the end, and for that I apologize....

dmp
 
Where are the board members that we all voted for so they'd help change things? Steve and Candy at least post once in a while and I understand not standing in the middle of the fire.

Dave? Jeff?

Ray, I voted against the majority on both of these motions. Obviously I disagreed with the majority on both or I would have voted for them.

That being said, the Board of Directors has made it's decisions on these matters and that's the way things stand. I'm not going to try to pick apart a vote that I was against or the people that voted one way or the other. My votes speak for themselves.
 
Ray, I voted against the majority on both of these motions. Obviously I disagreed with the majority on both or I would have voted for them.

That being said, the Board of Directors has made it's decisions on these matters and that's the way things stand. I'm not going to try to pick apart a vote that I was against or the people that voted one way or the other. My votes speak for themselves.


gotta love'em! :clap::clap::thumb:
 
Wouldn't the PROPER thing for the BOD to do here is re-visit the team suspension vote and maybe do a re-instatement of the team,lift the 3 year suspension or do something along the lines of being more reasonable ? Maybe the BOD could consider the suspension done now,time served,and just give a probation period,seems it would go a long way with mending ALOT of peoples attitudes and views on the BOD,BUT I won't hold my breath,that would be a far too reasonable,and beneficial, thing to do.
 
Wouldn't the PROPER thing for the BOD to do here is re-visit the team suspension vote and maybe do a re-instatement of the team,lift the 3 year suspension or do something along the lines of being more reasonable ? Maybe the BOD could consider the suspension done now,time served,and just give a probation period,seems it would go a long way with mending ALOT of peoples attitudes and views on the BOD,BUT I won't hold my breath,that would be a far too reasonable,and beneficial, thing to do.

Hey Tim, long time no see, hope things are well out there in AZ.

As to the bold above, this seems to be your attitude towards most things KCBS, wondering what axe you have to grind?
 
No axe to gring with KCBS,just think this was a really bad decision to ban this team for 3 years,that was excessive and I think you would agree,especially if it happened to you.The only other axe I HAD,was a problem with a certain former board member who lied to me, and just did some real dishonest things and I had a problem with him.I still do KCBS contest when I have the time,they're great,I just think(as do ALOT of others)the BOD has made some really poor decisions as of late,this 3 yaer suspension being one of them.Hope all is going good out where you are,it's hot here,you aren't missing much 120 deg. today !
 
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