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Thoughts from the Judges Advocate:

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CarolinaQ

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For those that have not read the article “Thoughts from the Judges Advocate”, by Dave Compton in the December edition of the Bullsheet, I would highly encourage you to take a few moments and read this article describing the actions of Judges, Table Captains, Organizers and Contest Reps. As a KCBS competitor, I was very disturbed by these revelations to say the least!
Considering the time, attention to detail and financial outlay that I put into a turn-in box, and then to think that a Judge, Table Captain, Organizer or Contest Rep is doing things with my turn-in box that could potentially cause me a low score or disqualification is beyond disturbing!
I'm not a top team and I don't get to compete in a ton of contest each year like some folks, but even if it's only one contest, it's still a lot of time and money invested.
A few highlights from the article:
Table Captain that opens the box, looks at the entry, then makes a face so that you know exactly what he thinks the appearance score should be on that box.
Or the one who shakes the box like it’s a present under the tree.
The Judge who takes multiple pieces of meat from a turn-in box while judging to stuff in his or her cooler to take home.
Talking on a cell phone, texting or taking photos with a cell phone while Judging is still in progress.
 
Hi,

Does this actually rise to the level of being a problem that should be seriously addressed? It seems to me to be a situation where you can't protect against idiocy and the occasions when this happens must be incredibly scarce.

I've never seen a table captain give visual clues to their opinion of a boxes appearance. I've never seen someone shake up a box. I've never seen people taking from the box to put in their cooler, but I can imagine that is more common than the other problems. Hopefully it's the sixth judge and they are taking extra (ie. enough to sample and then some for their cooler). I have seen people on the phone during judging, but not while they are judging. It's more that someone from table 3 is on the phone while table 5 is still actively judging. Still wrong though.

I also realize that the problems of regions vary greatly, so my perspective is coming from events in the NY area.

The majority of judges, table captains and reps take their job very seriously. I fully support their dedication and place in the competition community.

Problems should absolutely be addressed, but it's dangerous to overstate concerns.

Eric
 
Make sure you read the next to last paragraph, also. He says, and I quote
"the vast majority of Judges and Table Captains are great folks who really enjoy what they are doing and try their best to do it well. By far, the average person in the “tent” does understand the Rules and wants everything to go just right." unquote.

Please don't let this turn into a judge, TC, Rep, and KCBS bashing thread! Does this crap happen? Sure. And I'll go out on a limb here and say that it probably always will. It will never go away as long as humans are involved. ​
 
seriously, who ever is putting together the bullsheet needs to exercise a little editorial control. Last month it a front page article about how the public that comes to bbq contests are mouth breathing idiots who are only there to bother the competition teams. This month it is an article about how the judges screw up your entry.

How about we leave the articles about the "dirty truths" in the circular file and publish articles about the positive things about competition bbq.
 
ModelMaker said:
I think the JA is pointing out the very rare, very worst case senarios in a attempt to make those of us that judge think a little bit.
Thinking is a good thing.
Ed
Click to expand...

This about sums it up. If we are going to have a paper, it should at least serve a purpose beyond making us feel good about ourselves. I commend KCBS for running the article.

Does it ruffle some feathers? Sure it does. Should we all get our feathers ruffled from time to time? The truth hurts. We need to call attention to shortcomings and this is the best vehicle KCBS has to communicate with every single member of the organization.

Well done, KCBS.
 
Hats off to David for a good thought provoking article.
Sometimes those unthinking non verbal clues that just happen actually say a lot.
Everyone needs to be on their toes.

As Capt Table correctly says, read the last paragraphs that put the observations in perspective.

I know David as someone who works tirelessly to make judging better for all of us.
And bless him for doing that.
 
CarolinaQ said:
For those that have not read the article
A few highlights from the article:
Table Captain that opens the box, looks at the entry, then makes a face so that you know exactly what he thinks the appearance score should be on that box.
Or the one who shakes the box like it’s a present under the tree.
The Judge who takes multiple pieces of meat from a turn-in box while judging to stuff in his or her cooler to take home.
Talking on a cell phone, texting or taking photos with a cell phone while Judging is still in progress.
Click to expand...

I am a Certified Master Judge, have been judging for 10+ years, in 6 different states and I have never seen any of the above mentioned things happen even once.
 
DawgPhan said:
seriously, who ever is putting together the bullsheet needs to exercise a little editorial control. ....
...How about we leave the articles about the "dirty truths" in the circular file and publish articles about the positive things about competition bbq.
Click to expand...

I'll disagree on this for a couple of reasons.

First & foremost, as I stated in the article, most judges, Table Captains, etc do their damnedest to do the best job possible. However, there are some who just might need to re-think what they are doing and I think that pointing out some of the most troubling things might do that.

Second, I'm hoping that by pointing out some of these problems that other judges / TCs will quietly let the offender know that what he's doing is wrong.

And finally, if some one is doing these things and thinks that it's perfectly okay then I don't really feel that we need or want that person involved in the judging part of competition BBQ.

Read the article again. Notice that I did my best to point out that these problems are not widespread - but they are still problems. Maybe some one will read that & think: "Dang - I've done that - I won't do it again".
If that happens then I've done what I tried to do.
 
Rookie'48 said:
I'll disagree on this for a couple of reasons.

First & foremost, as I stated in the article, most judges, Table Captains, etc do their damnedest to do the best job possible. However, there are some who just might need to re-think what they are doing and I think that pointing out some of the most troubling things might do that.

Second, I'm hoping that by pointing out some of these problems that other judges / TCs will quietly let the offender know that what he's doing is wrong.

And finally, if some one is doing these things and thinks that it's perfectly okay then I don't really feel that we need or want that person involved in the judging part of competition BBQ.

Read the article again. Notice that I did my best to point out that these problems are not widespread - but they are still problems. Maybe some one will read that & think: "Dang - I've done that - I won't do it again".
If that happens then I've done what I tried to do.
Click to expand...


training judges should be done through the official classes. not articles in the bullsheet.

Secondly anecdotes are not data. Everyone loves to tell their war stories, but those stories are great for friday night, not so great for the official publication of competition bbq. We need to be presenting ourselves in the best light possible. If you gave the last two bullsheets to someone not in cometition bbq, I dont think they would think very highly of it. Last month the front page was people who attend contests are stupid, this months front page article is people who ask me about competition bbq are stupid. Inside this month's bullsheet is an article about all the horrible things that happen.

I dont doubt that your heart was in the right place, but KCBS needed to say no to that article and the last 2 front page articles. Competition BBQ needs to have a far more engaged public at these contests, we need their money and articles about how stupid they are, or how horrible the process is, isnt helping.
 
I don't think sugar coating it is the answer either. Let's face it, the Bullsheet is a LOT of ads and a little bit of "stories". There are hardly recaps of events, unless its the Great American BBQ Tour. Things do happen in the judging tent, not often, but, it happens. Addressing it is better than the alternative.
 
DawgPhan said:
training judges should be done through the official classes. not articles in the bullsheet.

Secondly anecdotes are not data. Everyone loves to tell their war stories, but those stories are great for friday night, not so great for the official publication of competition bbq. We need to be presenting ourselves in the best light possible. If you gave the last two bullsheets to someone not in cometition bbq, I dont think they would think very highly of it. Last month the front page was people who attend contests are stupid, this months front page article is people who ask me about competition bbq are stupid. Inside this month's bullsheet is an article about all the horrible things that happen.

I dont doubt that your heart was in the right place, but KCBS needed to say no to that article and the last 2 front page articles. Competition BBQ needs to have a far more engaged public at these contests, we need their money and articles about how stupid they are, or how horrible the process is, isnt helping.
Click to expand...

I think you are only taking the worst two points of both articles and blowing them up. There is a lot more fiber in the articles if you keep an open mind.
 
Diva said:
I don't think sugar coating it is the answer either. Let's face it, the Bullsheet is a LOT of ads and a little bit of "stories". There are hardly recaps of events, unless its the Great American BBQ Tour. Things do happen in the judging tent, not often, but, it happens. Addressing it is better than the alternative.
Click to expand...


:roll:
 
DawgPhan - respectfully- KCBS is big enough, strong enough, and old enough to not be afraid to tell it like it is.

Turning the Bullsheet into a piece of fluff is not the answer and would perpetuate the problems. Put things out in the open and then clean them up and proclaim the improvement.

And judges get trained once. The career and the habits both good and bad can go on for decades. Hopefully refreshers will soon be offered and and utilized.

And where else is KCBS going to address topics to all members at once? Should the organization ignore or cover up known problems? We already have enough stuff that goes on behind closed doors. Don't need more of that.

And there are a lot of BBQ people who are not smart enough to be on the Brethren
to find out what is what.

And lots of us like KCBS warts and all. A photoshopped version is not necessary.

Articles like David's do not hurt KCBS, they help make us all better.
 
But writing articles that make it seem that judges are only in it for the food they can take home or that they aren't trained properly is tabloid journalism. I have been judging since 2008 and have done about 40 contests. I have never, ever seen anyone treat a box with other than utmost care. There has be zero shaking or rough handling. I have never seen anyone, other than official photographers, taking pictures of boxes. In between rounds I have seen the smart phones come out and people check their e-mail, surf the web, etc. The only time I have seen a judge take more that one piece was at the Battle of the Brisket in 2009. That judge was NOT a KCBS CBJ. I was the table captain and after all judging was complete I told the person that they should only take one piece of each type of meat and no more.

Most judges I have sat with and known are conscientious and strive to do the best job that they can. There may be some bad judges out there, but I haven't run into or sat with any of them.
 
Competition BBQ folks (cooks and judges) are a very, very small niche of society. I don't see how the general public could be offended by these articles at all. Honestly, that's the reality. It's my understanding that the KCBS BullSheet is only for KCBS members, not the general public. Please correct me if I'm wrong, it happens often.


IMO, the offended parties seem to be judges. I'm a judge, but mostly a cook, and I honestly enjoyed reading both of the articles. Sometimes, ya just need to step back, crack a beer, take a breath and not over-analyze things.....enjoy it for what it is. If you don't enjoy it, turn the page.
 
I have only judged a bit over 30 contests, mostly on the West Coast, but I have never seen the type of behaviors described. If bad behavior did occur I'm certain the TC would discreetly pull the judge aside and provide a little on-the-job training.
 
My very first comp I judged(Council Bluffs,IA) a few years ago, there was not enough Table Captains but plenty of judges. At our table they asked who had the most experience and they(the rep) made him the table captain and replaced him with another judge. I dont remember anything about the first 3 categories but the brisket stands out to me because this "table captain" on at least 2 of the boxes that were full said "make sure I get to taste some of this". Now he may have only said that because the boxes were full, I am not sure, but to me that comment could be taken different ways and it did happen. I did not say anything to the rep at the time because I didnt know if this was the norm. I learned right away that this should not have happened because I talked to other judges at this contest afterwards.

I just told that story just to say sometimes stuff does happen, whether intended or not, so for KCBS judges to talk and think about it is a good thing in my opinion.
 
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