Judging: Among The Brethren.

I'm new to the game, but it impresses me that you guys have put so much thought into it. Phil, you flew 1000+ miles to judge, but the real draw was to see your extended family (Brethren). You were cooking on borrowed equipment (not coaching), and you extended the offer to forgoe judging if anyone became concerned. No matter what you do, people will form their own oppinion, so all you can do is be as honest as possible, and do it with as much class as you can muster.

Looking at it from my personal perspective, although I want to win, I want to be judged accurately and honestly. If my turn-ins are bad, I want to know that they are bad, and vise-versa. If I win, I want to know that I won on my own merit! This is the only way that I can improve. The best judges of improper conduct would be Jimmy, Tim, Dave, and the others that were with you, as they were the ones who would be accused of any benefits. Anyway, the bottom line is try to show as much respect to the other competitors as possible, but that being said, if you don't have fun, then you will cease to contribute to this sport that we all love!

My take on this, unpopular as it may be, is to behave like a professional. If something you do, can be percieved as less than ethical, don't do it. These perceptions become reality as we are all human beings. If you wish to associate with anyone competing, do so after the judging is over and do it doscreetly. Just think of how your wife would feel, if at a company picnic you went off to shoot the breeze with a female co-worker and she saw you. It maybe very innocent, but her perception may prevent you from getting any for a month.

Wow...some serious BBQ for thought !!!. Valid points from everyone...

Based on my few months as a Brethen, I think this is a relative non-issue based on the nature of the group.This issue is much larger in scale, well beyond the Brethen and resides with the overall rules of KCBS.

BrooklynQ made a point that wifes & girlfriends, are often in the judges tent.... If there is room for judges who sleep and live with competitors, there surely has to be room for the Brethren to "hang out" for a little while. The Brethren exemplify everything that is right about competition BBQ folks. To me, this alone makes the debate needless especially given the fact that it's blind judging. It is nearly impossible to guarantee pefection to the rules in anything. Cheaters will always cheat in every sport and their will be some who will do whatever it takes to win.

A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.

Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?

MilitantSquatter said:

Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?

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Thanks good points and this quote gave me the best GRiN I have had in a while.:biggrin: :biggrin:

MilitantSquatter said:

A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.

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I don't know if you realized it, but these contests are for cash prizes. The Grand Champion and Grand Reserve Champion both usually win a few large. I don't think this would be such a big deal if they were just competing for a trophy.

Hi Guys,
Sorry to be so late.
First off, let's not overreact. No one is saying a judge can't "interact" with a team on Friday. It's a long tradition to party on Friday and judges are welcome. Reps aren't allowed to drink at the event, but judges certainly are, and do all the time. Everyone is allowed to eat and visit with each other. To spend the whole evening in one teams camp might be inappropriate though, since they will have to be prepping for the contest at some point. Use your head, it's not that hard. I don't think KCBS has a solid stance on this. (Gee, what a surprise). Someone told Dave or Tim that the judges were free to do as they please on Friday. True. But.............

I don't think whoever said that was thinking that the judge would be cooking dinner in the teams camp. Maybe that's OK, since it was clearly appetizers and a prime rib, which had no place in this cookoff. I still think it was a questionable idea, since the teams spices, sauces and meat were all in close proximety to the cooking, and the teams pit was being used. One could easily have thought Phil was cooking with this team if they'd stopped for a visit. When Phil was prepping a pile of ribs in the team area at 8:00pm, it definitely looked wrong and that's when we talked about it.

I think Tim is on the right track. If you're coming to judge, do that. Hang out and visit on Friday, but don't plan to cook anything. If you want to cook, just pass on the judging the next day, you can still have fun and eat lots of BBQ. I don't think you should do both.

That's my opinion.

Excellent thread! I am a cook and a CBJ and here is an experience that hapened to me this year. I went to a contest to just hang out with a couple of teams on Friday and stick around for the awards to cheer them on. I even slept (well Ok passed out in a chair but thats another thread) under one of the team's tent. I had no intentions of judging.

Saturday morning the contest organizer asked if I would judge since he had 15 judges that were no shows. I told him I would and from that point forward I avoided the teams until after judging. I might also add that I did not help cook or offer advice to any of the teams.

Yes the judging is blind, however I knew a couple of these teams very well and have cooked with some of them or they have cooked with me in the past. I was very concerned that I might recognize an entry but didn't - until the brisket came around. As soon as they opened the very last brisket box I immediately recognized it. I thought about disqualifying myself but that would not have been fair to any other other competitors. I decided to continue judging and feel that I judged ALL of the entries as impartial as possible. The brisket I recognized was OK but not great and I judged it accordingly.

If this were to happen to me again I wold turn down the offer to judge - simply because of the negative perception that some people could have had. I think that if a Brother is judging that it is certainly acceptable (and EXPECTED) to stop buy other Brethern teams on Friday night and hang out - eat, drink and enjoy. However as soon as that team starts to prep their meat or otherwise get ready for the contest it is time to leave. Stop by on Saturday but only to shake hands and introduce yourself - don't hang out while the entries are being prepared. Several Brothers judged the Hermann, MO event this year that I cooked and all of them stoped by for an introduction. I would have loved to have them come in for a drink or two but one, I was busy, and two they were judges.

I think most of us can maintain our impartiality but as others have mentioned - perception is reality - at least in the eyes of the perceiver. I think there are some judges that have recognized an entry or two. The "no marking" tries to prevent that but as you become familiar with some of the teams you just know what their product looks like. Hopefully when this happens the entries are being judged fairly.

As Ray stated judges hanging out on Friday night it is done all the time. Judges cooking with the teams on Friday is not happening much and if someone wants to look for a reason to bitch it could give them a reason (real or not).

Judges are asked not to mix with the teams on Sat. Just recently an offical position was taken on telling judges who food it was they judged, it is not to be done.

Just so everyone understands what you're talking about Jim.
There has been kind of an unwritten rule, that if a judge asks a rep AFTER judging, whose food he had just eaten, the rep would tell them. What this created was regular judges getting very familiar with some regular cooks entries, and some of these judges even began boasting that they had judged team x or team y today. Then a rumor began that some judges were scoring team x or team y down, for whatever reason. Then the rumor changed that these judges were scoring team x or team y up, instead of down.
It was all bad for the system, and I commend the board for stopping it.

I did not read every response here. I tried to, but damn you guys are serious about this topic (read – long winded), so forgive me if I duplicate somebody else’s answers or ideas. I’m excited that this topic has created such interest and discussion, because I believe it’s all about making competition barbecue better.

First off, every situation is unique. A couple things that make Phil’s experience different from others is wearing a logo that is common to a couple teams and prepping & cooking in a contest site. I realize it wasn’t either team’s actual logo, but two teams where flying these logos. I am a firm believer that perception is greater than reality. As cooks, we understand that judges make friends with teams. It happens quite frequently. It’s become common to see some judges out on Friday evening enjoying the camaraderie of the cook teams.

If a judge decides to hangout with one team on Friday night, they should use their best discretion in deciding when it might not be appropriate to be there. For example, when the team is prepping meat or putting meat on the cookers. It goes without saying that judges should not be involved in prepping or cooking in a team’s space. However innocent, if a team unfamiliar to the situation saw Phil prepping ribs on Friday night in a contest site and entering the judging tent on Saturday, I can see where they might express some concern.

For those of us that don’t feel a judge in our camp on Friday evening is a problem, would it be different if it were three judges? How about six judges or even a dozen judges? If your answer is “yes,” you should probably rethink your opinion on a single judge in your spot. We should all use our best judgment in these situations and try to see these situations in the eyes of an outsider.

Great dialogue!

I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.

KCpellethead's comment made me re-think my position, although I was somewhat on the fence leaning the opposite way in my first post... One judge may not seem like a big deal, but when you start talking about groups of three +, that's not fair and can definitely lead to finger pointing down the road.

I know think that hanging out on Friday's,meet and greet on Sat's before things get down to business etc are OK, but definitely no cooking, helping etc... mainly because of the perception it breeds, even it their is no merit to the true intention of the judge or team involved.

Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM

What's this about Phil wanting to pinch my butt!!

Don't we all? :wink:

Stumbled down this road once

I don’t want to beat this one to death but I think this is very relevant! This was the first chance I have had to put this up.

Prior to my Smokin’ Cracker BBQ Team I was involved with cooking some FBA contests with another team that was sponsored by a men’s club/organization similar to the Brethren. The club is called The Good Ole Boys Supper Club in Sebring, Florida with approx 100 members. The competition cooking team consists of about 4-5 guys and we cooked at only a few FBA events in our surrounding areas as they still do. One of the members of the organization Jon Doe and his wife are certified KCBS & FBA judges. At one of the events we were competing at Jon Doe and his wife were scheduled to judge the event. Upon arriving at the contest mid morning on Saturday my friend Jon Doe & wife stopped by for a quick visit and was very careful not to loiter. During his brief visit the FBA rep visited us and she asked my friend not to judge the contest due to the fact he was wearing a Good ole Boys hat similar to the ones we were wearing and the perception was not good, as questions had arisen by others competing. His wife was permitted to judge. This man was not part of the competition cooking team but just a member of the club. Real Life Experience

Even after that experience. It never crossed my mind that Phil was in our camps or how others may have perceived his presence.
I think the Prime Rib juice blinded me.

Chew on that Farkers

kapndsl said:

Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"

We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM

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Then it goes back to getting an answer from the KCBS people. I will do whatever we decide as a group since I don't want to upset anyone in the Brethren. If there are no rules about what judges can and can't do then I don't seeing them taking away a GC or a RC from someone because someone complained. To me it keeps going back to integrity. I always give people the benefit of the doubt to start.

slat said:

I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.

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Well stated, and exactly my thoughts! I knew there was a reason I liked you, Slat!

This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.